T Nation

The Supreme Court Fight is On. The Divide Worsens


#2611

Well, I questioned whether or not it’s even possible, so obviously not.

Not really. I’m just asking how you interpret the use case of the insult. To me, the insult is reliant on deviating from the masses. Which can’t happen from the minority opinion side of fence.

Like pushing the birther movement for half a decade? Trickle down economics? In what world are race baiting and fairy tale promises a partisan event?

Well, Republicans have spent SIGNIFICANTLY more time in power in nearly all aspects of govt since the Jim Crow days.

Are you saying Republican policies lead to better outcomes with blacks? I would be interested to see the stats on that. Or any GOP controlled area (there’s a ludicrous number of them) in which we’ve seen blacks doing better than average in higher amount than Dem.

Rant aside, I noticed you never answered my question on if the phrase could even be used correctly by a black republican.


#2612

The GOP has promoted the most prominent of fairy tale promises for the last 30 year’s - supply side economics - and even passed a tax cut on the basis of that fairy tale and in 2016 nominated and elected an (openly) ethnonationalist crank to the highest office in the land.

But the Democrats are the party of fairy tales and dividing people along racial lines?

Huh?


#2613

That’s because it is a loaded question. If I say that Black republicans should call black Democrats Uncle Toms because of the same reasons that black Democrats call non-Democrats Uncle Tom, that makes me guilty of the same rhetorical lapse I’m accusing mainstream Democrats of.

Republican? No. Conservative? Yes. Republican policies can blow with the winds too, on a local and national level, and the party is by no means immune from bad ideas. I’m saying that conservative principles of limited government, free markets and individual rights is the engine of prosperity for nearly everyone, everywhere. That doesn’t mean it is perfect and that doesn’t mean that those principles are capable of shielding everyone from bad outcomes, but they strike me as a better bet going forward than anything the Democrats have done, which by your own admission is very little.

What were your top 3 achievements again?


#2614

I’d be happy to hear you make the case for your assertion.

Yes, they most definitely are.

The GOP is not perfect and I’ve never been a member. I’m re-thinking that since I’m obviously a conservative now and I don’t think there’s anything the Democrats can do to ever regain my vote. I don’t have the free time or clout to start a new conservative party, so I think I should be taking part in the primaries.

As I said above. Conservative principles of free markets, individual freedom and and (to a lesser extent) limited government have been the principles of success not just for the USA, but for nearly every 1st world nation. That doesn’t mean no government, no regulation and no social safety net, but that does mean sticking to those guns and keeping the beast of government at a reasonable arm’s length.

The Democrats of today are unrecognizable from the party I registered for in 1998. It is the party of socialism, open borders, identity politics uber alles, white guilt, white privilege, a new definition of racism, failed economic policies the world over and principles that change with every news cycle. The success that normal people across the world have experienced is not because of any of these crazy ideas, but in spite of them. If the opposite was true, why haven’t places like Cuba, Venezuela, China, The Soviet Union, Cambodia, Vietnam or North Korea overtaken any of their regional competitors?

Trump wasn’t my first choice, but I can credit the man for actually working to fulfill what he campaigned on and facilitating the unmasking of the left in this country. He’s not the first president to really get in and stir the pot to disrupt the status quo, and hopefully he won’t be the last.


#2615

I’m asking you if you believe the phrase is reliant on a majority vs minority aspect or not.

They don’t seem to strike black people that way. Despite white republicans constantly telling them how stupid they are for voting against their best interests…

while complaining about black people that tell other black people they’re stupid for voting against their better interests.

2 kids and a wife. Tbh not sure how I got this far most days.


#2616

No I don’t think that has much to do with it. The phrase seems to be reliant on very little besides ideological divergence from Democrat policies. If you could provide an example that shows otherwise, I’m all ears.

Those are your words, not mine. I can go into more detail about my belief in the importance of the Assumption of Good Faith, but it is not a concept that seems to resonate with modern Democrats. The bottom line is that Uncle Tom rhetoric is the exclusive domain of the left. I’m still waiting for an example of a conservative, any conservative of any color using that term. I’ll be online all night working if you can dig one up…


#2617

I disagree, but ty for answering :+1:

Luckily, by your definition as well, it’s impossible for a black Republican to use the word correctly.

Well. Per my definition, AND yours, it’s the exclusive domain of the left by default.


#2618

Yes, but perhaps for different reasons.


#2619

Well I’m glad we cleared that up. Now you won’t be wandering where those Republican examples are, because you believe they can’t exist by default either :+1:


#2620

The reasonable inference from this statement is that you believe it is possible for a black Democrat to use this word correctly.

So, do you agree with the Democrats who’ve labeled Ben Carson, Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas an “Uncle Tom”?

Let’s hear it! What do you think? Where do your convictions lie?


#2621

To the effect that they define the phrase? Well yeah. I also believe it’s possible for my grandpa to throw around his slurs based on the way he defines the word. I don’t have to agree with it for them to use the words correctly. I didn’t decide what they mean.

I think Carson is a cockgobbler, but I don’t agree with the concept of ‘uncle tom’ because I don’t agree with the concept of something being better for your race. Any help beyond a reasonable amount from the mean is a crutch long term into the future.

Rather boring I’m afraid. Like most Dems, I just don’t really care about people using it. The same way I don’t get up in arms when black people call each other the other slur word


#2622

So you agree that he was correctly labeled as an Uncle Tom “to the effect that they define the phrase”.

Interesting…

But one paragraph later you don’t agree with the concept of Uncle Tom.

Interesting…

I don’t lose any sleep over this either, but I can at least take a clear position that doesn’t contradict itself in the same post.

So, let’s hear you say it. Is Ben Carson, Clarence Thomas or Thomas Sowell, an “Uncle Tom”, or not?

If so, please explain. If not, please explain.


#2623

Feel free to do a search, I’ve hammered this for years - but the data show that since we went all in on this theory in the early 80s, we’ve seen economic growth and specifically productivity growth but the income gains have not “trickled down,” as evidenced by wage stagnation. The GOP’s trickle-down idea was often described as “the tide that lifts all boats” - well, the numbers are in, and the yachts moved up nicely, but the little boats didn’t move or lost elevation.

He unmasked the left, but not nearly as much as he unmasked the right and showed just how morally bankrupt it always was - touted principles were always negotiable.

Why in the Hell would any “conservative” want the most powerful government office in the world to be a “pot stirrer”? That’s as antithetical to conservatism as nationalized industry. This isn’t a reality show - it’s governing a complex post-industrial society.

Conservatives don’t want chief magistrates to be “pot stirrers” - they want them to govern intelligently and sow unity in society, not division. Conservatives have always been in favor of harmony, not groups of people with daggers at each other’s throats over cultural issues in civil society.

If what you’re describing is conservatism, my ass is a banjo.

Imagine working at a company and a new CEO comes in and someone says “he’s very conservative”. You see him in the boardroom and the hallways and he’s a nonstop shit show of loudmouth smack-talk against people who disagree with him, serial lying, mocking people with disabilities, and constant bleating about being treated unfairly in the public eye…would you call that man conservative?

Of course not.


#2624

It’s not some hidden Dem plotwise agenda. It really is as simple as understanding what someone is saying based on what they mean by it.

Are they using it correctly by my standards? Obviously not, already answered.
Are they using it correctly by their own standards? Obviously so, or they wouldn’t be saying it.

See above. No tin foil needed. The Dem megaplot to steal your words doesn’t start til after the midterms.

Asked and answered :smiley:


#2625

Yes I’m aware of this data point, and this factored heavily into why I thought the Democrats of the late 90’s were a good bet. Those guys are long gone.

I’d also contend that crony capitalism to the extent that we’ve seen is only possible when the government is as expansive and powerful as it is. Eisenhower had some wise words to say on the subject, yet we’ve ignored those words and manged to grow the government every single year in my entire lifetime. All that’s in dispute is the rate of increase. Shrinking has never been on the table.

What we haven’t seen is any resemblance of success from countries where countries have embraced the ideas of the modern Democrat party. Just failure after failure, tragedy after tragedy. Some might think that it is a good thing that 42% of the children being born in Germany are from migrant families, but I don’t particularly like those odds for the survival of classical liberalism, let alone German culture and society. Leftists shouted from the rooftops just 10 years ago about the successes in Venezuela, and now people are lucky to find a dog to eat. I can go on all day with these kinds of examples, yet you won’t find a single leftists politician that’s still in power who will stand up and say “I was wrong”.

I think people of my age and younger are moving the party away from that. I suppose I need to register as a Republican before I can make any claim of moving the party anywhere. Time will tell.

A loudmouth former NY Democrat doesn’t meet my measure of conservatism. Interestingly, you can actually draw a lot of parallels between him and Lincoln. Trump’s no Lincoln, but the Democrats’ behavior sure does seem familiar to anyone who’s studied that part of US history.


#2626

That’s a chicken-shit non-answer if I’ve ever heard one. You’re saying they are right by their standards but you’re also saying they are wrong by your standards. All that tells me is that you hold yourself to different standards than you do black people. Bravo. Let’s try this again.

Do you believe any of the black conservatives I mentioned are Uncle Toms? Yes or no. One word answer please.


#2627

I don’t disagree one bit, but it’s your GOP that is (by far) the worst enabler of this.

Nonsense. Many modern countries are making the social democratic model work (and I say that as someone who isn’t a social democrat).

Trickle down economics hasn’t worked for the 30 years it’s been attempted ans has made its states goals worse - tell me, how many rightists have stood up and said “well, didn’t work, sorry about that”?

No, you can’t. That’s ludicrous. Not personally, not politically.

Well, let’s see - not at all.


#2628

Nonsense. Youu can draw plenty of parallels with the rhetoric flying around these days. I need to finish up my work but here’s a quick google search of the rhetoric of 1860. Again, I’m not saying Trump is Lincoln, I’m just saying that Democrats are being Democrats.

All of the quotes I’m lifting are from this article. It’s pretty easy to see the similarity of the rhetoric we’re dealing with today, with another Republican stirring the pot in the Office of the President.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0004.103/--anti-lincoln-tradition?rgn=main;view=fulltext

Confederates called Lincoln a “tyrant,” a “fiend,” and a “monster”

In speeches, sermons, and songs, in books, magazines, newspapers, pamphlets, and broadsides, they also portrayed him as a simpleton, a buffoon, a drunkard, a libertine, a physical coward, and a pornographic story-teller.

Hatred of Lincoln sometimes crystallized into threats against his life. For instance, soon after the firing on Fort Sumter, he received from Mississippi a newspaper clipping in which a reward of $100,000 was offered for his “miserable traitorous head.”

Of course the rankest abuse came from the copperheads, among whom none was more inventive in his vituperation than a Wisconsin editor, Marcus M. Pomeroy. Lincoln, he wrote, was “but the fungus from the corrupt womb of bigotry and fanaticism”—indeed a “worse tyrant and more inhuman butcher than has existed since the days of Nero.”

As the election of 1864 approached, Pomeroy editorialized: “The man who votes for Lincoln now is a traitor and murderer… And if he is elected to misgovern for another four years, we trust some bold hand will pierce his heart with dagger point for the public good.”

Frederick Douglass, the leading black abolitionist, declared in his monthly magazine that Lincoln had become the “miserable tool of traitors and rebels,” and had shown himself to be “a genuine representative of American prejudice and negro hatred.”

I only got through the first third or so of this one article and I really need to finish up work and get to bed. My point is that any examination of 1860’s rhetoric from the Democrats and even the Whigs (the modern parallel to the “NeverTrump” conservatives, I suppose) will show that it is very much of the same flavor we see today.

Again, I’m not saying Trump is Lincoln. I’m saying Democrats are being Democrats, carrying on their centuries old traditions of promising the fruits of other people’s labor, sowing racial divide and failing to deliver on any of the promises they make.


#2629

I think that is exactly what it is. If you go against what the majority holds to be true/right you may be labeled an uncle tom. Siding with law enforcement, all of Bill Cosbys stances, etc.


#2630

Sticks and stones man

Cute

No.

If I have to answer it again you’re going to look even sillier.