T Nation

The Supreme Court Fight is On. The Divide Worsens


Among plenty of other people. The willingness to go back decades to attempt to define a political party certainly isn’t exclusive to you.

I have no problem calling these past moves failures. But I’d no more use them to define the Dems anymore than id use Nixon to say that not only is the GOP full of criminals, but it encourages and elects them (despite it looking a hella lot truer given modern day Trump)

Off the top of my head, not dissavowing racism against minorities. The GOP has been the party of anti minorities my whole life.

Given iPhones, healthcare, and basically freebie loans (all pushed by both parties), i think you’d struggle to demonstrate that blacks are worse off now than they were in the 60s.

I guess if you only look at South Chicago it wouldn’t be too hard

Absolutely. It’s a direct result of PEOPLE not achieving in the way they’re capable. It’s absolutely not reliant or contingent on either party.

Unless you’d like to blame the GOP for the crippling heroin wave and abysmal living/health conditions we’re seeing in my home state of WV

Lol wherever you want. You’re a grown man. I don’t presume to pick the topics you care about when voting. That’s just silly.

I was gonna leave it at the house of racists, but I’m also stealing zecarlos line, because it’s less jabby and more accurate. The drug war is easily the biggest failure of the GOP in my lifetime, and I could argue the downstream effects make it damn near impossible to assign blame to either political party, despite it not being either one’s fault.

Edit: biggest failure IRT minorities and their outcomes


Playing DA a little bit, but what about failing to provide an alternative? Maybe the Democrats tried and failed, but they tried. What did the GOP do, other than make hollow promises that wealth would trickle down into the pockets of black communities so long as we cater to the interests of the wealthiest?

You might say it this way borrowing from football: on one hand you have a quarterback who cares deeply about moving the ball down the field but throws interceptions during the course of the game and on the other hand you have a quarterback who simply doesn’t care about moving the ball down the field at all and never throws the ball at all. If you legitimately cared about moving the ball down the field, which quarterback would you take?


It also drives me absolutely insane when people can boil down extremely complex historical, social and political issues into a nice neat little box; and say that it’s all because of a single cause and/or group of people.


Probably because it’s a tactic intentionally not rooted in reality designed to further tribalism and partisanship.

Remember, it’s always the OTHER guys fault


Funny, I’ve never heard a Democratic politician call them failures. In fact, it seems like they say the problem is we need more progams like the Great Society today.

How so, aside from letting Strom Thurmond into the party and accepting votes from racist rednecks? We can agree on the Drug War being racist in its intent and outcome, but have they introduced any policies remotely close to what the Democrats have done?

I use the Chicago example for a few reasons. First, I grew up less than an hour from downtown and have followed events there closely my whole life. Second, it gives us a laboratory to see what can happen when Democrat policies can play out over time with little obstruction from an opposition party. Third, we have many other Democrat strongholds with similarly grim results in the USA. We can look abroad for some indication of what their policies might play out like in the future.

There’s the human component too, and I’m all too familiar with heroin waves. In the late 90’s my friends could drive to the Robert Taylor homes in under an hour and get plenty of cheap heroin to bring back to Indiana. And drive there they did. Four of my good friends are dead now, plus another from my current home of Maine. On top of dozens of shattered lives.

That doesn’t, however, explain the destruction of the family unit. I think that lies squarely with D’s and their policies, and the research is clear on what a tremendous handicap it is to be raised in a single-parent household. Individuals can always rise above, but now we’ve got a multi-generational problem on our hands and there’s just no going back.

On this I would agree. It has been a disaster as well and too many non-violent people are locked up and saddled with the legal consequences once they get out.

Well to be fair, I was giving eyedentist a straightforward answer to the question he asked. I don’t have all day to write.

It isn’t always that simple, but some times it is.

Again, Chicago is a great example to examine because we can see what happens when you don’t keep any conservatives around. I could bring up Detroit or Baltimore for other stark examples but I don’t keep myself informed about those places the way I do the regional and cultural capital of my youth.

Not that Chicago D’s don’t still try to blame conservatives in other areas for their area’s woes. If only everywhere had Chicago style gun laws it would be impossible for shootings to happen and everyone would be holding hands you see. It’s the racist police fault, etc. It’s a racist judicial system, so let’s get the ACLU in here to get this guy who just robbed a store and beat a guy out of incarceration so he can shoot up an 8 year-old girl next month. It’s gotten so predictable that they’re actually predicting people who will get shot (8 year-old female bystanders are not among that group, btw, but plenty of children are). If you’d like to learn more, look up the Strategic Subject List.

The only solution offered is to elect the next round of Democrats and watch things spiral even further out of control.

Unfortunately, a conservative politician will have a tough sell and an uphill battle if their message is making the neighborhoods safe to open businesses in, removing incentives for single-motherhood and increasing incentives for having babies in a family unit. In practical terms, it may not be possible anymore. That’s a problem that will probably take decades to fix, just like it took decades to more than triple the number of black children being born in family conditions ripe for failure.

But at least left-wing people can say, “oops, we meant well”, just like everywhere else that they’ve run into the ground across the globe when given unchecked power. Oh wait, they don’t say that. They just sing the same song again.

I agree that this is one of the great failures of the GOP. I’m actually considering registering as a Republican for the first time in my life so I can take part in the primaries. The Republicans have a serious branding problem with people who want to know what government can do for them, but don’t like the answer of “not much, and we need it to do less than it does today”. The solution is not that simple, of course, but un-raveling decades of policy failures isn’t a simple affair either.


And why is that your conclusion, @twojarslave?

To me, it gives me a “laboratory” into what happens when 1) good paying, unskilled labor jobs are lost, never to be replaced, mostly due to technological advances and overseas outsourcing; and concomitantly 2) tax bases are gutted leading to an overall diminution of overall services.

All of this is independent of political etiology.


Fortunately, I am not a democratic politician.

Openly saying we don’t approve of or support racism in any form? Wouldn’t be that hard. And I’m sure my grandpa would have had his Obama on a noose flag flying in his front yard anyway, but you’d think it’d help a little.

Nope. They have done noticably nothing to attempt to improve things. I’ll give you that one.

I think it lies squarely with the dad’s that ran off. Just me though

This pretty much sums up my entire state of WV, that has been in decline my entire life, and run almost exclusively by republicans. Seems a whole state might be a better case study than a single city like Chicago


Not completely independent. Not when policies have such a tremendous effect on whether a business wants to do business in any given area.

  1. Industries have changed and evolved in many, many other places all throughout history. The changing steel industry hit my home town very hard, as it did the whole Chicago metro area. Some parts of the region managed to evolve and move on to new industries by, get this, being attractive places to do business.
  1. There’s a spending side to that coin as well, and the D’s have had generations to manage that instead of mis-manage it. Now the tax base is REALLY getting gutted in Chicago because people have just had enough and are moving out in droves, taking their assets and businesses with them as taxes continue to climb. They ain’t coming back, either. Fiscally, the city is fucked.


I agree there. We need to elect people who aren’t racist, who take people to task for calling them racist (because they will be by virtue of being conservative), and deliver a message of liberty and prosperity that stands out above the racist identity politics of the modern left.

There’s that too, but it doesn’t explain the trends over time. If you look at the wiki article I linked above, you’ll see very stable rates for a long time up until the mid-60’s when they start to climb dramatically. What do you think might have caused that upheaval?

I don’t know a lot about the situation in WV. What is in decline there and what policies do you think have contributed to said decline?


As opposed to the identity politics driven guy they actually elected? The guy that took the “lefts move” of ID politics and ran with it, infusing it into nearly every aspect of republican decision making?

A decrease in the quality of the dads. Not everything requires a political policy to make something happen. Things happen in the world that politics doesn’t really have anything to do with.

Off the top of my head?

  • low amount of diversity (it’s praised within the state) among citizens
  • extremely low emphasis on education and skilled labor
  • drug war
  • virtually no appeal to businesses for almost any reason
  • infrastructure is a joke
  • low population (that stems from the other things most likely) which leads to low spending power which leads to a myriad of crap
  • low quality citizens in general
  • drug war


Interesting. I think there’s a pretty clear correlation with the government making single parent households a much more viable option with aforementioned Great Society programs. That incentive seems pretty significant to me, and we can see that family statistics that had been stable for decades suddenly became unstable.

Why do you think the quality of dads suddenly decreased and continued to get worse over time starting in the mid-late sixties? What do you think happened?

Is it safe to assume that you think more Democrats would improve these outcomes? If so, how?


And Republicans would have done what exactly to stave off technological advances and overseas workforces working in slave conditions and for slave wages?


I don’t disagree that would be a contributing factor at all.

I don’t think it was sudden at all. I think, all in, it took decades and generations of snowballing garbage

Not really. I think Dems are so vehemently hated almost exclusively across the state there’s no chance of them accepting anything Dem pushed/sponsored.

I think WV is too far gone to come back tbh. Too many generations of groupthink (low quality groupthink). Too many lazy ass republicans who refuse to learn a math equation or a skill beyond coal. Iirc they’re still one of the most dependent on federal aid, and I doubt anything will ever pull them out of the top 10 on that list


Make it more attractive for new businesses to locate in the places where the old businesses no longer do.

And now it looks like they do tarriffs on countries with slave conditions and slave wages. China comes to mind, another bastion of generations of one-party left-wing rule. I’m not sure about tariffs. On the surface they seem like a bad idea but what else can you do to places with the conditions you described, other than not trade at all?


It most definitely was. The research is clear. Here, see for yourself. Look at the graph. Something obviously changed.


More pat, easy answers for extremely complex problems, @twojarslave


We’ll have to agree to disagree on what sudden means. That sure looks like a graph that started snowballing in the 50s to me. Through multiple administrations, and iirc, much more time under GOP control than Dem


What do you think is easy about making a place attractive for new businesses? That’s not a house you can build with the stroke of a pen.


Trump thinks you can.

A tariff here…a tariff there…hurt one industry because your base supports another…

Problem solved with the stroke of an Executive Order Pen…


You may be right, but like most policies we need time to see how they play out.