creed,
Great explanation of why the Push-up is superior to the Bench press relative to shoulder health!
ZEB
I guess your right. I bench only 600 pounds (515 without a shirt)so what the hell would I know about shoulder health.
JA
JackAss,
I simply informed you about how I use dumbbells to Bench press with. I understand that you can move them lower than a barbell. I choose not to use them that way. This (and many other techniques) have extended my lifting career.
Congratulations on your 600 pound Bench press. that puts you in a class of elite Bench Pressers! However, just because you can bench more than me (and most others), does not mean that you are always correct regarding every training topic.
I have seen many who could Bench press large amounts of weight. They had short arms and a barrell chest. They were not going to injure themselves Barbell Bench pressing no matter how often they trained. Does that make them experts on what is good for everyone? No! In fact, it may mean the opposite.
The biggest, strongest guy in the gym is not usually the smartest regarding quality training information, and how to stay injury free. In fact, sometimes they are so genetically gifted that most things that they have done have helped them and they rarely get injured. Another important ingredient is age. You can do almost anything in your 20’s and escape injury. When you get into your 30’s, 40’s and beyond there is a cumulitive effect of all of the stupid things that you did the previous 15 to 20 years.
The average trainee who visits this forum is in his early 20’s (according to one survey I did a few months back). I simply offer what has worked for me in my 30+ years of training. You can like it, you can hate it, matters not. If even one person benefits, I have done my job!
I am not quite sure I buy the bench being worse on your shoulder than push ups. When you actually look at the push up and the straight bench (at least in my case) there is maybe 5-10 degrees difference, at most. Considering the difference b/t flat bench and decline/incline is a great deal more than 5 degrees, I need a little more convincing than simple joint angle…
I dont see how you can make such a blanket statement about the bench press. I have terrible shoulders from playing real sports and the bench press has never given me any problems. If you bench wide, with your elbows out to your neck then maybe that would be really dangerous. But if you bench the way you are “supposed to” then you shouldnt have any more problems than with any other exercise.
Yes eventually you will get hurt bench pressing. Just like you will eventually get hurt squatting, deadlift, rowing, curling, walking, chewing gum, climbing stairs, hitting a baseball or anything else you could come up with.
Goldberg,
I think you have the ideal build for Bench Pressing. I imagine that you will never get hurt Benching.
DA MAN,
Don’t want to convince anyone. Just passing on what I have seen work for many, including me. Keep doing what you are doing…I don’t mind.
Siff comments are here http://isb.ri.ccf.org/biomch-l/archives/biomch-l-1999-04/00100.html What I was curious about was that Dr Greg here on this forum called deltiod recruitment taboo when it comes to cuff and specifically ex rotators rehab, that side lying L raises were very good at excluding the deltiods involvement. PLZ comment on this article.
I have the ideal body type? please. That must be why I have so much trouble with my bench press. I also have a very long stroke in the bench press, even with a good arch.
Offering my own experiences at 42 y.o. after having trained since I was 14 (with a few stops along the way) and having benched very heavy as a teenager and early twentysomething, I’m sort of in the “Siff” camp. It seems that heavy deadlifting type movements, rows, etc. do a world of good for my shoulders. I used to do a lot of low-cable ext. rotations but rarely do them anymore.
Now, the topic of shoulders is a “delicate” one… both literally and figuratively! ZEB is offering his positive experience with the Shoulder Horn. By the way, there’s at least a couple of great articles in the T-Mag archives that cover the whole topic of shoulder health, prehab, exercise routines, etc. Check 'em out for those who really want to “delve” into this topic.
Goldberg,
How much do you Bench?
Here’s my two cents worth of addition to this post. I like to have trainees perform the shoulder horn external rotation exercise while face-down on a 75 degree incline bench. The reason? This position forces the external rotators to maintain constant tension throughout the full range of motion. In other words, while standing, the external rotators have to maintain very little tension to hold your arms/load at the top of the movement. When your torso is slightly shifted forward, the external rotators have to keep firing at the top of the motion (where you still possess a lot of external rotation strength). Try it and see if you like it.
Coach Waterbury:
What is an optimal rep/set range that you would recommend?
Zeb / Chad,
Old school lifters like Brooks Kubik seem to be in favour of giving up both bench and incline bench presses in favour of military presses, dips etc
What’s your take on completely giving up bench pressing in favour of other safer and more ‘athletically relevant’ exercises such as standing barbell and db military presses?
Glad you jumped in Chad! That sounds like an interesting twist. I’ll give it a try.
thy,
If you study weight lifting history you will find that shoulder injuries were rare prior to the advent of the Bench Press. Quite a lot of overhead pressing was performed in the early days. Contrary to modern day popular belief overhead pressing, with a standard warm up (in front of the head), will not cause injury.
As I have stated many times on this forum, Bench Pressing is an “unnatural” movement. For those of you who want to know what I mean by “unnatural,” it simply means that the Bench Press has no parallel in the real world of bodily movement. Meaning that in the real world you do not lay on your back bring a heavy weight (and your hands) to your chest and then press it up.
Let’s look at the Deadlift as a movement that does have parallels in the real world. You can easily find yourself lifting a heavy object from the ground. Anyone who has changed residence has lifted an item from the ground. A sofa, desk, washing machine etc. Our ancestors lifted heavy logs and rocks. Our bodies are built to perform such movements over and over again!
Whenever you repeatedly stress the body in impractical patterns you will become injured. There are always exceptions to the rule, but the rule is still valid.
I usually take heat regarding my views from two sources: the first is Powerlifters who somehow think that I am attacking them. I have great respect for Powerlifters and nothing could be further from the truth. Their response is usually something in the order of “I can Bench Press 500lbs. and I have never been injured.” Because one is built for Bench Pressing, shorter arms and a barrel chest, and is the exception, does not disprove the rule!
The second group who usually disagrees with me are young males who measure their overall body strength by performing this movement. “How much can you Bench?” Is the question heard around the world when it comes to young guys exchanging strength statistics. They have not Benched long enough to become injured. Therefore, in their mind it will never happen.
One need only sit back and read this forum week after week, month after month, to realize that the majority of injuries are caused by Bench Pressing!
While the Shoulder Horn does in fact help to strengthen the shoulder joint. Discontinuing the Bench Press is the best move for all trainees to take.
The only reason that I take the time to post my thoughts is that I might prevent even one person from having to go through the pain, cost and time of surgery because they just had to see how much they could bench.
Zeb- i was just saying that your reasoning is not all that sound. a difference of a few degrees is just not enough proof to make a statement like that, nor is “guys hurt themselves when they bench.” that is a lot of the reason squats got a bad name… but, keep doing what you are doing.
Also, if you touch the bar to your chest on the bench, and go all they way down on pushups (and dont have a gut…) your hands should go just as far back… the stopping point for the bar is your chest, the stopping point for the floor is also your chest…
The Study of Weightlifting History-I should have taken that class. I didnt know it was offered.
I bench 402 with a shirt on. Not exactly impressive.
to me, this is right up there with squats are bad, dont let you knee go past your toe, all behind neck work is bad, etc.
gmehne,
I like to have trainees perform external rotation with 5x8 or 4x6. Obviously, these aren’t the only parameters I use for that exercise, but they’re the set/rep breakdowns I’ve had the most success with. I don’t know why so many coaches mandate high rep ranges with external rotation exercises. I sure in the hell hope it’s not because of “muscle fiber” makeup, or due to the muscle groups theoretical primary motor units. Either one of these aforementioned issues should not be a the sole determining factor when selecting a set/rep range. If you’re training for maximal strength then you need to hit the proper muscle groups (external rotators) with an adequate load. It’s fine to alternate with higher reps for the second workout of the week. But training external rotators with only high rep schemes is an ineffective strength-building technique.