The Semi-Sumo

Greetings gents.

My entire lifting career (which spans about 4 years), I’ve been a conventional deadlifter. Hated sumo from the start. It felt slow, and my hip mobility was terrible for it… queue the violin.

I’ve recently gotten back to lifting, after a 4 year break (so 8 years since i lifted my first barbell, wow time really flies) and went straight back (no pun intended) into deadlifting conventional. I’m pretty tall with fairly long legs, and it’s always been a problem for me to sit back with my hips and get leg drive. Instead I’d shoot up my hip and let my back do the work, since I was much stronger this way. Having a mild form of lordosis, conventional hasn’t always been a pleasant experience.

Last session a friend suggested that I tried the semi-sumo (for the first time). As the name would suggest, it’s sort of a hybrid between the two, a sumo with a narrower stance.

His reasoning was that it should allow me the best of both worlds. First, I’d have less angle on my back compared to the conventional, but at an angle where the back would still contribute significantly - and the narrow stance should put my hips in a position where they felt strong without having to shoot them up.

I was surprised to find out that he was right. Did 3 reps of 350 pounds, and on the conventional they were pretty hard. Worked my way up to 3 reps og 350 pounds on the semi-sumo and not only did I experience no pain, but I felt like I had both good leg drive and lower back activation. They felt lighter, and that was my first time doing them…

It could just be that my lower back was tired from all the squatting, which I’ve been doing a lot of lately. But that doesn’t really make sense to me, since I do olympic high bar squats. If anything, those would probably tire out the posterior chain before the lower back.

What do you guys make of it? I’m going back to the deadlift next wednesday to play around with it again, and see if it still feels stronger than the conventional. If it does, I’m sticking to it.

Hey man, good call on posting about the squats.

I just wanna say that I do high bar squats and am very quad dominant. I started lifting sumo/semi-sumo.

I recently switched a few months back to conventional because I felt like I lack back strength and quite literally you couldn’t even see my hamstrings. Logically, I also just felt that the conventional deadlift fills a hole left by only front/high bar squatting.

Something to keep in mind! Good luck

[quote]Sutebun wrote:
Hey man, good call on posting about the squats.

I just wanna say that I do high bar squats and am very quad dominant. I started lifting sumo/semi-sumo.

I recently switched a few months back to conventional because I felt like I lack back strength and quite literally you couldn’t even see my hamstrings. Logically, I also just felt that the conventional deadlift fills a hole left by only front/high bar squatting.

Something to keep in mind! Good luck[/quote]

I think I follow your logic. You’re saying that the lower back might not get enough attention with high bar squats and sumo right?

I agree with that. But what if you’re like me, with a very dominant lower back? Would it not make sense to do semi-sumo over sumo, if the conventional is causing discomfort?

It might be a form issue with your conventional deadlift. Have you experimented with having the bar out further from your shins at the start and/or flaring your toes more or less?

Not that there’s anything wrong with sumo deadlift. If you decide to go sumo, take care of your hips.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
If you decide to go sumo, take care of your hips.[/quote]
How do you take care of your hips aside from limiting volume of wide stance stuff/rotating it out when your hips start getting beat up?

[quote]DSSG wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
If you decide to go sumo, take care of your hips.[/quote]
How do you take care of your hips aside from limiting volume of wide stance stuff/rotating it out when your hips start getting beat up? [/quote]

Check out mobility wod. He has lots of stuff on loosening up the hips. The guy on that site could explain and show things so much better than me.

My two cents: Use all three (conventional; sumo and “semi-sumo”). Rotate them each time you happen to have a heavy DL day, however often that is. Each will focus more heavily on some muscle group at the expense of others, but ultimately all 3 are going to involve your glutes/hams/hips/lower back and should carry over to the others. The variation should help keep your hips healthy and prevent you from burning out, while also providing different stimuli so as to avoid accommodation.

I’m a similar build to you, and have always dealt with the same issue of hips shooting up. I’m guessing you also struggle to keep a neutral spine as a result of this, at least on the working sets. Focus on technique, and video your heavy attempts so you can analyze yourself and/or get advice from people here. One of the biggest things that has helped me improve my conventional technique is to really focus on filling my sternum/belly with air and pushing my abs out as hard as I can. This solidifies my core and helps me keep my back neutral. It still ain’t pretty on 1RM attempts, but it’s a lot better than it used to be (to be honest, the shit form never caused me lower back discomfort during or after my lifts, but I’m sure it would inevitably catch up to anyone and is better to address now while still healthy and before problems pop up).

It could also relate to mobility and Fletch’s comments about taking care of your hips. I like to foam roll a lot to address this, as well as performing DeFranco’s agile 8 before deadlift workouts (minus the static stretch at the end), and perform it a few other times each week.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
It might be a form issue with your conventional deadlift. Have you experimented with having the bar out further from your shins at the start and/or flaring your toes more or less?

Not that there’s anything wrong with sumo deadlift. If you decide to go sumo, take care of your hips.[/quote]

I haven’t tried flaring my toes, but I’ll definitely do that next session. Should put the glutes and hamstring in a better position.

As for the shin part, that wouldn’t work for me. I have long legs, but short torso, so it would be impossible for me to keep my arms perpendicular to the floor. If anything, I’d like to get it closer (currently about 4-5 cm away from shins) but with long shins, the bar scrapes against them.

The semi-sumo sort of alleviated that.

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
My two cents: Use all three (conventional; sumo and “semi-sumo”). Rotate them each time you happen to have a heavy DL day, however often that is. Each will focus more heavily on some muscle group at the expense of others, but ultimately all 3 are going to involve your glutes/hams/hips/lower back and should carry over to the others. The variation should help keep your hips healthy and prevent you from burning out, while also providing different stimuli so as to avoid accommodation.

I’m a similar build to you, and have always dealt with the same issue of hips shooting up. I’m guessing you also struggle to keep a neutral spine as a result of this, at least on the working sets. Focus on technique, and video your heavy attempts so you can analyze yourself and/or get advice from people here. One of the biggest things that has helped me improve my conventional technique is to really focus on filling my sternum/belly with air and pushing my abs out as hard as I can. This solidifies my core and helps me keep my back neutral. It still ain’t pretty on 1RM attempts, but it’s a lot better than it used to be (to be honest, the shit form never caused me lower back discomfort during or after my lifts, but I’m sure it would inevitably catch up to anyone and is better to address now while still healthy and before problems pop up).

It could also relate to mobility and Fletch’s comments about taking care of your hips. I like to foam roll a lot to address this, as well as performing DeFranco’s agile 8 before deadlift workouts (minus the static stretch at the end), and perform it a few other times each week.[/quote]

This is some solid advice, thanks. And yes, you’re right, neutral spine on 1 rm attempts is definitely an issue for me.

I’m currently doing some of the stretches found here: Stretching Doesn't Work

Haven’t had a chance to evaluate their effects yet as I recently started doing them.

I’ll definitely be asking one of my friends to film me next time I do a heavy work set.

[quote]cavemandiary wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
It might be a form issue with your conventional deadlift. Have you experimented with having the bar out further from your shins at the start and/or flaring your toes more or less?

Not that there’s anything wrong with sumo deadlift. If you decide to go sumo, take care of your hips.[/quote]

I haven’t tried flaring my toes, but I’ll definitely do that next session. Should put the glutes and hamstring in a better position.

As for the shin part, that wouldn’t work for me. I have long legs, but short torso, so it would be impossible for me to keep my arms perpendicular to the floor. If anything, I’d like to get it closer (currently about 4-5 cm away from shins) but with long shins, the bar scrapes against them.

The semi-sumo sort of alleviated that.[/quote]

I have long legs and short torso too. I actually keep the bar barely behind my large toe knuckle. It takes more ankle mobility but it’s definitely doable. You’re hips will be lower and more under your center of gravity (closer to being on top of your feet) as opposed to stuck way out. That’s how you keep arms perpendicular to the ground.

Now I don’t have long shins I have the opposite, but sometimes I will do snatch grip deadlifts in weightlifting shoes while keeping my hips way down for assistance which means a big shin angle. To keep from scraping my shins to hell, I focus on pulling my knees back while maintaining constant contact with the bar with my shins and legs through the lift.

Now I’m not saying this is the only and right way to do things for you, I just thought it might be worth a shot.

welcome back to the game Cave man. up till about 3 months ago I almost loathed deadlifts. I often bitched about push pull meets saying they should have a squat /bench meet as I love those two. anyways, I have been doing the semi sumo also and love it. My shins are about an inch or so inside of the rings on my TPB. I’ve recently pulled 495 for 5 reps this way.

When standing conventional where I feel the strongest which is fairly narrow (edge of shoes on the knurling of the bar) I’ve pulled 455 x 4. So yeah, my flexibility sucks and I’m not really motivated enough yet to do much about it. To echo what Fletch wrote up there, I’ve tried to get my shins against the bar and I always end up looking like Quasimoto or some shit when I pull despite how hard I throw my weight back BUT if I start with the bar above my first shoe lace at the base of the piggy toes and lift my big toe as I’m taking the slack out of the bar I do good typically. IDK if I’m just effed up beyond normal or what but that’s what I do.

Switched to semi-sumo and have to say I love it. My squat is my strongest lift (I have a long torso with short legs, at 6’, so not sure if my strengths fit my body type or not!) and I feel that this stance works to my strengths. However, I have also been using some conventional lifts to strengthen weak points, so should have everything covered quite nicely… first meet tomorrow though, so I suppose I can’t judge my progress until then - hoping for 187.5kg SQ, 115kg BE, and 180kg DL.

Just a quick thought: I’ve always felt more “comfortable” conventional, an I’ve messed around with a semi sumo, but recently discovered now that I pull the most weight full sumo, even though it still feels awkward and heavy.

So, x2 for having them all in your training til you figure it out

[quote]halcj wrote:
Switched to semi-sumo and have to say I love it. My squat is my strongest lift (I have a long torso with short legs, at 6’, so not sure if my strengths fit my body type or not!) and I feel that this stance works to my strengths. However, I have also been using some conventional lifts to strengthen weak points, so should have everything covered quite nicely… first meet tomorrow though, so I suppose I can’t judge my progress until then - hoping for 187.5kg SQ, 115kg BE, and 180kg DL.[/quote]

good luck at that meet and let us know how you go

how is your lockout in semi-sumo compared to your conventional? did you ever do regular sumo?

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
how is your lockout in semi-sumo compared to your conventional? did you ever do regular sumo?[/quote]

Hard to say, since I only did it for one training session at 80% for reps. I doubt that it will cause too much trouble though.

Yeah I tried sumo, and it just doesn’t feel right. Can’t get any legdrive. plus it’s not very comfortable for my hips.

The squat is probably my weakest lift at the moment. I squat MAYBE 300 pounds with a belt right now, but my conventional deadlift is atleast 410 pounds, with the bench being around 250 pounds.

Perhaps my weak legdrive has to do with low squat strength.

[quote]Terry Gibbs wrote:

[quote]halcj wrote:
Switched to semi-sumo and have to say I love it. My squat is my strongest lift (I have a long torso with short legs, at 6’, so not sure if my strengths fit my body type or not!) and I feel that this stance works to my strengths. However, I have also been using some conventional lifts to strengthen weak points, so should have everything covered quite nicely… first meet tomorrow though, so I suppose I can’t judge my progress until then - hoping for 187.5kg SQ, 115kg BE, and 180kg DL.[/quote]

good luck at that meet and let us know how you go[/quote]

Thanks, it went quite well in the end (see other thread).

Any other thoughts gents? Wednesday is going to be my DL day, so I will be providing an update then.

Okay, so sorry for the late reply.
Wednesday I was deadlifting again.

Did 3x3@145 kg followed by
3x2@155 kg

All sets were very easy.
I alternated between conventional and semi-sumo, and to tell you the truth today they felt pretty equal in terms of strength and leverage. I will continue to alternate between them, especially since the sumo is easier on my back and hopefully has a better carryover to my squat, where my posterior chain is a bit lacking.