[quote]!vic wrote:
Here’s a novel idea, if you don’t agree with someones approach:
Stop reading the thread, don’t use the approach, and don’t revisit the thread. [/quote]
…and here is another novel idea, realize that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum and that if you post something PUBLICLY, expect for it to be DISCUSSED. If I wanted to ignore it, I would have. Obviously, I didn’t. Your take on my responses is also wrong. I have seen MANY people on this forum and others make this overly complicated. I have seen far fewer actually make so much progress that it warrants it. I shouldn’t mention that? On a bodybuilding discussion forum? What world are you living on?
Question, if you didn’t like my responses, why didn’t you skip them? You not only read them, but felt the need to post a response to them. Why not follow your own advice? There is a term for that.
While I agree totally with that which Prof. X and others have stated, I think many of you are missing the whole point of GetLifted’s thread.
The debate is not whether or not he would progress as much (or further) by simply lifting big and eating big, but to evaluate a particular book/program that is currently being touted.
"This Challenege will either reveal my newly 10-20 pound packed physique or it will flop on it’s face. If it works like it claims… HUGE for the authors! If it flops, it will be stored with the other diet books in the abysmal flames of time wasted reading and following crap programs. Simple as that… "
Quite frankly, no amount of telling GetLifted to “eat this and lift that” will help evaluate the program, which can only be done exactly the way GetLifted is doing it.
I personally don’t care if GetLifted ever follows the valuable advice that Prof. X and others offer. What I do care about is whether or not this person achieves results from this particular program.
Remember, all good science has methodology that is well documented and repeatable.
Some might argue that he could have gained X amount from Program X, anyway, due to his training status, which is debatable itself. Only future tests of this protocol with subjects from different lifting backgrounds will tell us if the results are applicable to others. Conjecture is worthless.
However, we currently have a defined subject, and well documented methodologies and procedures. Now let’s see what the results hold in store, shall we?
[quote]Rocket Lax wrote:
Believe it or not, folks, the world is not fair. Some people can eat ten times a day and train their asses off and nothing happens.[/quote]
no offense but I kinda have to call BS on that. If you give your body more calories then it needs to run and give it training stimulus something will happen. maybe it will be a bit slower (slow gains better then no gains) then others but these people also don’t really have to worry about gaining fat like a FFB does.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
…and here is another novel idea, realize that this is a PUBLIC discussion forum and that if you post something PUBLICLY, expect for it to be DISCUSSED.[/quote]
I wasn’t aware that DISCUSSED and ATTACKED were synonyms.
PX:
I have read you going on and on for two posts now and still don’t know what the hell you are talking about. I will say that I call BS on someone being able to tell what your body type is simply by looking at, or measuring, your present untrained condition…
…what sense does it make for every skinny guy to approach lifting as if they need to train as an ectomorph or someone’s idea of how that body type should train? I swear, it looks like you have made this unbelievably difficult and complicated for no damn reason. Keep it simple.
!vic
(1) You’re not an ectomorph, this approach is stupid, keep it simple.
PX:
Unless you have OCD, I seriously doubt you will stick with this for long by approaching it this way. You haven’t even been training for very long and you are analyzing foot positions during squats as if you some sort of skeletal imbalance. Whatever…knock yourself out. If you truly get enjoyment out of this, have a blast.
!vic
(2) Unless you have OCD you will fail. But if you still want to try, go ahead.
PX:
…and time will tell. I don’t have anything against Get Lifted as I don’t even know him and don’t remember anything else he has posted. I only know what I have experienced in my life dealing with people who train and many who make this “work” or a “chore” straight out of the box seem to be the least likely to stick with it over the long term.
All in all, if this is what it takes for him to stay motivated, more power to him. I am willing to bet, however, that he is one of few who would actually go the distance with this much protocol as a relative beginner.
…I have no ill will towards anyone trying to reach a goal. I will tell someone my opinion of their approach though and don’t understand why someone else would not.
!vic:
(3) I don’t know Get Lifted, but I know that people who approach things his way, and not my way, fail. More power to him but I bet he fails. I don’t have a problem with people trying to reach a goal, but they should have to listen to my opinion too.
Nope, still doesn’t look all wrong to me. Looks pretty damn accurate.
I live in a world where restraint, manners, and consideration govern my interactions with other people. It is also a place where I’d don’t feel obligated to subject my views and opinions on those who don’t invite them or care to hear them.
Agreed. It is a phase though, not a term. The phrase is: fed-up
Helps me out with my program by allowing me to post every day and stay on track. I have essentially obligated myself by doing this.
It’s also, a review for the book and also a thread for other people that have the book to discuss and go through. Kind of like that velocity support group thread for losing weight or whatever. Same kinda thing, except opposite End. This book is for us ectos. Its integrated, and its what I have been looking for.
Expanding on the second point:
This Challenge will either reveal my newly 10-20 pound packed physique or it will flop on it’s face. If it works like it claims… HUGE for the authors! If it flops, it will be stored with the other diet books in the abysmal flames of time wasted reading and following crap programs. Simple as that…
In other words, because of my Non-Lazy and disciplined nature the book will NOT fail unless it is highly flawed-Which is hard to imagine given the authors! I have never bought any “meal” or exercise books. I have either had a sports coach or an actual personal trainer, so there wasn’t a need for anything of the sort.
With that in mind; I have made great progess thus far. (My 165 pound at 6’2" as a HS senior picture is at home) I managed to gain approx. 40 pounds of muscle during a 3 year time with a trainer. I imagined if I could ever hit 200 pounds I would be satisfied. (I was wrong, I am not satisfied) I don’t want to ever be “stagnant” with training and I feel it is time to make another huge change.
On a side note: Some of you act as if I have all this time to train freely and without restrictions. “Oh but what do you mean Get Lifted?”
I mean- in a years time… I only have about 3 months out of 12 to train the way I want to without restrictions. Why?
Simple: Football is year round and programs designed by coaches are implemented the other 9 months in addition to practices. It is not as if I can train freely. Often times the “weight lifting” is inadequate for certain people. Moreover, because I am a WR I run all the time which is likely a cause my my scrawnyness.
I am digressing too much but I thought this small sliver was essential to clear some more confusion up.
There it is.
(1) If you HAVE the book and are doing some of the same things I am… Great! “The Scrawny to Brawny Challenge” thread is for you to discuss. (Like the velocity support thread)
(2) If you want a review of the book from someone who is doing it independently and whom someone as JB states, " Does not represent the book etc" then this is the independant review your looking for. However, depending on how it turns out it will be a representation of the book in regards to how it reflects how well it worked.
Ie: If I get freakin huge(boondock saints) then it will be said, “It was the book and the instruction given” (very likely)
IE: If it fails it will be undoubtedly said by the experts, “I did not follow it correctly.” (very Likely)
In conclusion-
I will document what happens and give the experts a fair opportunity to chime in if they see I am doing something significantly wrong that they can clear up. That way, the second scenario may not occur and I’ll get freakin huge.(I don’t have a lot of time to screw around as it is)
And everyone else that has questions with THEIR book can follow along. In addition, I believe the “scrawny to brawny challenge” thread will be the most comprehesive thread ever to exist on this forum.
Sit back, grab a New Grow! Bar or Strawberry Grow! Low-Carb Tub and follow along… Or don’t… Either way, this thread is for my purposes anyway and anyone who finds interest in it.
I think my eyes just sort of glossed over once I saw your original plan. Damn MTV and my short attention span.
Anyhow follow it to the letter and keep us updated. While 15 bucks is a hell of a bargain, I want to know if I should devote a few months of my time to this book’s training/nutrition advice.
Oh yeah, once again this book needs a more complete explanation off its site and amazon. After reading the information available, I wasn’t sure why I should by it versus lets say Beyond Brawn.
Maybe you could have a few preview pages like you did for the gourmet nutrition book?
[quote]!vic wrote:
I wasn’t aware that DISCUSSED and ATTACKED were synonyms.[/quote]
Attacked? I can only imagine that in your Sesame Street world that anyone who doesn’t follow a post with a serving of milk and cookies is “attacking” someone.
No, you live in a world where there are several billions of people from all different backgrounds that you will either have to learn to tolerate and deal with or you will never be able to adapt to any environment. You also live in a world that, despite pretenses, is not cute, furry, and does not sing songs to you about how much we all love each other while wearing a purple dinosaur costume. Your take on my responses was false because I didn’t use the words you did. You heard what you wanted to hear. Apparently, not everyone took it the way you did because there are people that agree with the stance. That means your perception may need to change instead you attempting to chnge anyone that ruffles your feathers.
[quote]
Agreed. It is a phase though, not a term. The phrase is: fed-up [/quote]
No, the term is “hypocrite”. Have a great sun-filled day.
[quote]Attacked? I can only imagine that in your Sesame Street world that anyone who doesn’t follow a post with a serving of milk and cookies is “attacking” someone.
No, you live in a world where there are several billions of people from all different backgrounds that you will either have to learn to tolerate and deal with or you will never be able to adapt to any environment. You also live in a world that, despite pretenses, is not cute, furry, and does not sing songs to you about how much we all love each other while wearing a purple dinosaur costume.[/quote]
Oh my, we live in such a scary place. I guess I’ll have to act like a big bad meany and bully people around to show how important I am. Everyone knows that responding to someone with respect and encouragement is a waste of time. Is that what you learned as a child?
Right, you used a whole bunch more words to stress your points.
Maybe you ought to form a club? Then you can sit around talking about youselves, make fun of everybody else, and pretend that everyone on this site wants to be just like you.
Funny, that’s what I had in mind when I read your rants on the original thread.
I never would have guessed. Goodness, could that be construed as a polite closure, or is it just yet another attempt to demean those who don’t agree with you?
Lastly, let me declare you the official winner of the entire GetLifted debate. You accomplished exactly what you set out to do.
Damn, all my notions are being destroyed in one simple sentence. Life is harsh!
Okay, this isn’t criticism, in any direction, but just some points for consideration:
The Internet offers many places to post a private blog. Posting here not only invites but is sure to draw a varied response.
One of the things I’ve learned from my time around here is that any stance you take will be attacked by someone.
This is the Internet, you will be ridiculed, abused and made fun of. Grow a pair and get over it.
Okay, all seriousness aside, ProfX is a big meany and I wish he’d sugar coat everything because my feelings are kinda hurt. Sniff.
Hmm, back to a more serious note, I don’t see GetLifted crying or wilting in the face of these comments. Looks like he is man enough to take the heat for being somewhat unorthodox or different. Kudos to him for that.
Maybe if he needs someone to be his mommy he will PM you to let you know?
!vic , did you really just write the words “big bad meany”…and mean it? There are girls on this forum with bigger nads than you. Perhaps you should take notes.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
!vic , did you really just write the words “big bad meany”…and mean it? There are girls on this forum with bigger nads than you. Perhaps you should take notes.[/quote]
I would have assumed that someone with the intellect you give youself so much credit for could have figured out that I was referring to the love and encouragement you obviously never got as a child.
Oh, almost forgot. To all those who have to resort to the ball size reference, I’m sorry god gave you such a small penis.
I lift with a guy who took the same approach as get lifted and has achieved some amazing results, with very little injury. I on the other hand, have not. I have also suffered for it badly. Most recently was a breakdown on form that resulted in my spine buckling during a squat and some accute nerve damage,inflamation,rehab work, loss of strength, need to work twice as hard to get back to zero…
In retrospect, I would take this approach.
As for the dude with a lack of testicular fortitude- Come on man, at least pretend to have a pair.You know, like when you play with dolls and pretend that they talk.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
!vic , did you really just write the words “big bad meany”…and mean it? There are girls on this forum with bigger nads than you. Perhaps you should take notes.[/quote]
Methinks you may need to brush up on literary and rhetorical devices. The tone of a writing greatly affects its meaning, Prof. Your writing comes across as arrogant and condescending to the reader. It also appears that you’re missing the use of sarcasm, hyperbole, and other things in people’s posts.
The internet is a written world - it takes a little work to communicate effectively.
Just for the record, nothing wrong with insulting another man’s balls - folks do it all the time in the real world, it’s just a jibe.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am glad you read it. I was beginning to wonder if many of the authors here actually followed these forums closely.
[/quote]
I lurk more often than not. But, of course, when my name comes up, my ears perk up like anyone else’s would.
I certainly don’t think you’re clueless! In fact, quite the opposite.
Also, I’ve had private communications with Mr Lifted and I believe he’s not huge for 2 reasons - 1) He’s a uni. football player and only seriously trains during the off season (this adds significant challenges - I know this as I work with a ton of individuals in the same situation) and 2) He can’t get HUGE because he’s a receiver. If he gets HUGE, he’ll compromise his ability to ball.
In part, I think Mr Lifted needs a sports performance coach IN ADDITION to a strength coach right now and I also wonder if the S to B is best for him and his goals.
However, in the end, probably due to inadequate explanation on his part, overzealousness to “put S to B to the test” and due to most of the people on this board having different goals, the most important considerations here have been neglected.
Great point, but can you not see how continual assertions that “you’re taking the wrong approach”, “you’re too anal”, etc speaks directly to the merit of the book? Intention or not, all those mocking Mr Lifted are essentially saying the advice we’ve given in the book is somehow flawed. Now, Im open to that criticism ONLY from those who’ve read the book. If you haven’t read it, then you can’t comment on the methods.
Im not quite sure body mechanics is the sole domain of the chiro.
But that’s probably not your point.
Im not sure what is, though. Again, I stand firm that if you undertake a heavy training program with some funky knee, hip, or shoulder mechanics, form will suffer, soft tissue injuries can happen more easily, and athletic performance can suffer.
I agree, but the point isn’t that we’re assessing for lifting form. We’re assessing postural deviations - or, if you don’t like that nomenclature - joint position - of if that sounds to chiro-like - for f-ed up hips, knees, shoulders. In the book, a short static and dynamic movement analysis can tell us alot about whether or not someone needs to stretch more (and what stretches are important), work on posterior muscles more (some individuals have such anterior tightness that no matter what they try, they can’t bench or train back properly), or a few other postural, musculoskeletal abnormalities.
If this isn’t part of your program now you’re probably thinking - damn, what a waste of time OR, wow, sounds too complicated.
It’s not. It’s just NEW. Do the 15 min analysis. Add in a few corrective exercises. And see if your posture and form improves.
This is not the domain of the chiro. This is movement stuff. It SHOULD be the domain of trainers and kinesiologists!
Perhaps we define debate differently. Debate provides complete arguments, lines of reasoning, support (usually referenced), speaking points, and summarized conclusions. To me, that’s debate. I’ve got a philosophy agree and in my philosophy training I was taught to debate.
What happens here is RARELY debate (as I define it). And, to be fair, how could it be? Posts are short, we’re all busy, and to debate takes real time, consideration, and forethought into both your argument and the communication of it.
So, by virtue of this medium, we all have to settle for less than debate.
I do get pissed when I come on here (and other boards) and in the name of debate, people run eachother down, simplify eachother, and bicker in a petty way. (This is a general statement, not directed at you Prof X). In fact, this is one of the reasons I post less frequently. People will never talk to eachother in person as they do on these boards. That, to me, is cowardly and trite - and it undermines the very nature of what I wish the boards could be used for.
(But that’s just my utopian daydream again).
In the end, I respect your advice, experience, and knowledge ProfX. I’ve read quite a few of your posts and you’ve contributed alot to this board. So I’ve got no beef with you at all - and I hope that’s clear.
I just wanted to be sure to let everyone know that extensive commentary on something you’re not familiar with is ignorance. If you don’t have a copy of the 200+ book, how can you possibly comment on the methods from a few of Mr Lifted’s disjointed posts?
In other words, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water!
[quote]John M Berardi wrote:
I’ve had private communications with Mr Lifted and I believe he’s not huge for 2 reasons - 1) He’s a uni. football player and only seriously trains during the off season (this adds significant challenges - I know this as I work with a ton of individuals in the same situation) and 2) He can’t get HUGE because he’s a receiver. If he gets HUGE, he’ll compromise his ability to ball. [/quote]
Wow, that isn’t “minor” information at all, is it? Why did you have to say that for him though?
For the most part, as in the other discussion on this board about real or serious joint issues, we are not in disagreement. Just like Dr. Ryan and I are not in disagreement. I was pm’d by one poster who asked me something along the lines of, “what is the negative in training like an ectomorph even if you don’t happen to be”. My response was to the effect of dealing with the mental component. I am one who happens to believe that your mind is more capable than science will probably ever realize in my life time. It is why there are those who were constantly told that something could not be done went on and accomplished what was doubted, simply because they believed in the possibility more than the failure. Believing you are at the shallow end of the gene pool allows that subconcious notion of mediocrity to creep in. Even though you may claim to try hard and eat right and any other number of scientific training principals all thrown together, deep down you still have that voice telling what you can not do. That is your limitation, even before you truly begin.
I don’t see Get Lifted as an “ectomorph” or a “hardgainer”. By what you just wrote about him, I was right. He is a guy who never put it all together before because of other responsibilities (sports) or confusions about his program, regardless of how trained he thinks he is. Because of that, I never would have started him off as if he were an ectomorph or a hardgainer. I would have tried my best to make sure that he believes he can reach the goal he is after if he tries hard enough…period.
You mentioned proper debate. Proper debate doesn’t always need scientific studies to back it up. Often, much of what we base our strength, desire, and motivation in is nothing more than philosophy. There may perhaps be nothing stronger.
“Also, I’ve had private communications with Mr Lifted and I believe he’s not huge for 2 reasons - 1) He’s a uni. football player and only seriously trains during the off season (this adds significant challenges - I know this as I work with a ton of individuals in the same situation) and 2) He can’t get HUGE because he’s a receiver. If he gets HUGE, he’ll compromise his ability to ball.”
JB, not to break chops too much, but, just because he is a football player it doesnt mean he can’t lift off season. I lifted off season in college and still do. Many pro teams do the same. Obviously you make changes, but still no excuse to not do anything.
As for being a reciever, I don’t think he has to get huge but come one, looks like he never touched a weight. Look a at a Terrel Owens, not huge but muscular as hell, yet still fast and one of the league’s top WR. In all honesty, i’ve seen Guards with better bodies than Mr. Lifted.
“In part, I think Mr Lifted needs a sports performance coach IN ADDITION to a strength coach right now and I also wonder if the S to B is best for him and his goals.”