The Real Victims of Katrina

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Fonebone wrote:
Better yet, why not just make the government pay for it by the point of a gun to the head of the generations following mine? Oh wait, that’s going to happen anyway…

Uh, I think you misunderstood. Do you have health insurance? Why do you have it? Why not take personal responsibility and if you get sick…PAY FOR IT out of your own pocket?

Insurance is a voluntary agreement between the two parties. But say, Prof X, since you probably have a pretty high income, shouldn’t you be forced to pay for insurance for those in need? Is your desire for, a new car for example, more important than the poor who have no insurance? Shouldn’t you drive an old beater and pay someone else’s insurance bills? Isn’t the need of those who have little a moral claim on those who have more? Aren’t you supposed to be enslaved because of your ability and intelligience, enslaved to those who have neither your intelligience or your ability? Aren’t the ambitious here to serve the needs of the lazy?

I hope everyone sees how the worship of need has infected us all. Until we expel this from our consciousness, we never will have a civilized world – just parasites and victims.
[/quote]

I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

22

[quote]Fonebone wrote:
So, while we’re at it, why not get rid of my liability insurance on my car so if I cause an accident I can take full responsibility and pay for it out of my own pocket? Makes about as much sense as your proposition. [/quote]

Why not? How can you be against helping these people but FOR you helping my insurance rates go higher if you do get into that accident? I mean, shit, why not pay for your own damn vehicle?

[quote]
Or hey, since I live in South Florida, why not get rid of the insurance on my personal belongings so when I lose them in the next hurricane I can just drain my savings account to pay for it? [/quote]

Why not? If you lose anything, doesn’t this raise overall insurance costs across the board over time?

[quote]
Having insurance is an EXAMPLE of personal responsibility. [/quote]

No it isn’t. It is an example of having someone get paid to watch out for you just in case you get in an accident. If you actually do get into an accident, they have to justify that cost by raising insurance costs to make a profit, right? Doesn’t this mean I end up paying for your accident in part?

Why not pay for your own shit if you want everyone else to do the same?

23

C’mon guys…you’ve got to be kidding. I’m from New Orleans and I had several (15 folks) of my family come to live with me in Alabama after the hurricane.

I guess people really don’t get it. This was a natural disaster. Saying people knew it was going to happen so they should have abandoned the city years ago is stupid. How many people are fleeing California? Don’t they realize that any day now a large earthquake could make Cali an island out in the pacific. What about Florida? It’s usually the first to be hit by a hurricane. Why don’t these people move further inland?

As for gov’t assistance…if we can GIVE AWAY money to the tsumani victims in other countries why not help out fellow Americans? Forced? We are forced to pay taxes and our tax dollars are used in ways that we don’t always agree with.

Think about it…people lost homes, cars, jobs, schools, EVERYTHING. And contrary to what you see on T.V. there are folks with insurance (home owners, flood, etc) who are getting the shaft from the insurance companies.

If we can throw billions at a war to liberate Iraqis then we could pitch in (even by FORCE) to help out Americans.

Just when I think there’s hope…something like this pops up. Sad.

24

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I want to be clear that I am not against helping the poor, or those in desperate circumstances. I AM against being FORCED to contribute against my will. Many people are against the war, for example. They should not be forced to pay for something they find objectionable. My philosophy of life is that ALL RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN HUMAN BEINGS MUST BE VOLUNTARY, ON ALL SIDES. Otherwise, someone is the master and someone is their slave. We many not be able to attain the ideal, but there it is.

Those who wish to contribute to the people made homeless and so forth by the hurricane are free to do so. When I am forced to contribute, however, I do so but only with the threat of jail or a gun pointed at me. I refuse to allow the system to disguise what they do as benevolence – it is not. It is a system of blackmail, designed to rob the productive for the expense of the non-productive. It is altruism taken to its logical conclusion. It is the philosophy of the parasite.[/quote]

Ok, at first I thought that you were just one of those self centered right wing bastards. Probably you’re not because now it looks like you’re something of an anarchist.

You’re a teacher right? I hope you like your job. You probably do it well. There’s a law that kids have to be send to school. Probably some wacko’s are against that. Some people don’t have kids and they hate their tax money being spend on the education of others. Some rich folks probably send their kids to private schools and that’s not really fair, because now they pay for public education with their tax dollars AND for the education of their own kids with the measely sum that’s left over after they pay taxes (that’s sarcasm).

The point I’m trying to make is this. Civilisation = organisation.
Man can’t live alone. He lives in groups. And when you live in a group, you compromise.

The compromise is that we take care of those that have an accident, get struck by lightning, get their house swept away in a flood or swallowed in an earth-quake.

And it’s compassion that seperates man from animals. Ok some would say it’s the mediterrenean that seperates man from animals, but that’s just more of that us-vs-them thinking again, isn’t it? (that’s not sarcasm, that’s a joke)

History glorifies groups that were succesfull and achieved greatness togehter. The Egyptians built their pyramids. The Greeks put in their 2 cents and the Romans built an empire. They did this together. They didn’t achieve this by giving everybody a say on how every dime of his tax money should be spent

I’m surprised that you’re a teacher and you didn’t know this already.

25

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Fonebone wrote:
So, while we’re at it, why not get rid of my liability insurance on my car so if I cause an accident I can take full responsibility and pay for it out of my own pocket? Makes about as much sense as your proposition.

Why not? How can you be against helping these people but FOR you helping my insurance rates go higher if you do get into that accident? I mean, shit, why not pay for your own damn vehicle?

Or hey, since I live in South Florida, why not get rid of the insurance on my personal belongings so when I lose them in the next hurricane I can just drain my savings account to pay for it?

Why not? If you lose anything, doesn’t this raise overall insurance costs across the board over time?

Having insurance is an EXAMPLE of personal responsibility.

No it isn’t. It is an example of having someone get paid to watch out for you just in case you get in an accident. If you actually do get into an accident, they have to justify that cost by raising insurance costs to make a profit, right? Doesn’t this mean I end up paying for your accident in part?

Why not pay for your own shit if you want everyone else to do the same?[/quote]

Oh, Lord help me! I don’t have the time and I’m not wearing my wading boots.

Am I to assume, then, that YOU don’t have any insurance of any kind, simply out of courtesy to little old me? Gee, I don’t know how to thank you!

26

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.[/quote]

Speaking about bullshit, Prof, you should know more about that than anyone.

As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
What I am saying is: by all means help those in need. But when someone CLAIMS my earnings as their due, as their right, then THEY are speaking bullshit. They are functioning at the level of parasites and I will resist that.

27

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

What if I don’t want to fund other people’s irresponsibility? “Well, we’ve got guns and jails, so you’ll pay or else!” Like most liberals, since they can’t convince someone to cooperate, they resort to violence.
[/quote]

This is the best paragraph of your little rant.
Now it’s the LIBERALS that are using the guns and jails to forward their agenda? Politics changes so quickly these days.
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

28

[quote]Fonebone wrote:

Am I to assume, then, that YOU don’t have any insurance of any kind, simply out of courtesy to little old me? Gee, I don’t know how to thank you! [/quote]

I’m not the one claiming no one needs assistance and that, in the case of a natural disaster, they should take care of themselves. YOU ARE. Therefore, I don’t want YOU taking any more of my money. If that is too hard to understand, it isn’t because it is a difficult subject. You are a hypocrite for taking part in similar activities to the same ones you are bitching about.

29

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Speaking about bullshit, Prof, you should know more about that than anyone.

As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
What I am saying is: by all means help those in need. But when someone CLAIMS my earnings as their due, as their right, then THEY are speaking bullshit. They are functioning at the level of parasites and I will resist that.[/quote]

Exactly…so I hope you aren’t burdening the rest of society with your car and health insurance. I know you would never take part in such a potentially parasitic activity.

30

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Ok, at first I thought that you were just one of those self centered right wing bastards. Probably you’re not because now it looks like you’re something of an anarchist.

You’re a teacher right? I hope you like your job. You probably do it well. There’s a law that kids have to be send to school. Probably some wacko’s are against that. Some people don’t have kids and they hate their tax money being spend on the education of others. Some rich folks probably send their kids to private schools and that’s not really fair, because now they pay for public education with their tax dollars AND for the education of their own kids with the measely sum that’s left over after they pay taxes (that’s sarcasm).

The point I’m trying to make is this. Civilisation = organisation.
Man can’t live alone. He lives in groups. And when you live in a group, you compromise.

The compromise is that we take care of those that have an accident, get struck by lightning, get their house swept away in a flood or swallowed in an earth-quake.

And it’s compassion that seperates man from animals. Ok some would say it’s the mediterrenean that seperates man from animals, but that’s just more of that us-vs-them thinking again, isn’t it? (that’s not sarcasm, that’s a joke)

History glorifies groups that were succesfull and achieved greatness togehter. The Egyptians built their pyramids. The Greeks put in their 2 cents and the Romans built an empire. They did this together. They didn’t achieve this by giving everybody a say on how every dime of his tax money should be spent

I’m surprised that you’re a teacher and you didn’t know this already.[/quote]

Suppose everyone in the group was hungry and decided that you are to be lunch. Is that your idea of compromise? Look, when people live in groups, they live as free equals, or someone is slave, someone is the master. Why is the fact that you are smarter and can produce more a ticket to serfdom? Should you be forced to feed others who don’t want to bother working? Do the ambitious exist to serve the lazy? No. So the only way the lazy, irresponsible ones can get what they want is by force. They first try to tie the producers using guilt. “How dare you be rich, when others are hungry?” they cry. When the producers figure out this crock, the parasites create governments that force the producers to ‘share’.

Compassion has nothing to do with using brute force against helpless victims. Taxes are brute force used against those who would not pay voluntarily for something. I think that forcing victims to pay for irresponsible acts of others is hideous. The people of New Orleans, who scream for my tax dollars, are parasites.

31

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
Headhunter,

I hope you survive the traumatic experience of paying a few extra tax dollars this year, although most of us already know that this is much worse than having your house trashed and your life disrupted for an extended period, I still want to thank you for the reminder of who the true victims are.

Here is a classic example of this mindset: Someone is in need, so someone else must foot the bill. A ‘lack of’ has a mortgage, a moral claim, against the ‘has’. The parasite has a moral claim on the host.

[/quote]

Wow, all that suffering has sure made you bitter. How many weeks have you been mourning the loss of your money to help people rebuild their lives?

Do you also object to being forced to pay for the establishment of better lives for people in Iraq? Because something tells me that’s costing quite a bit more…yet you choose to whine and bitch about this.

32

[quote]AZMojo wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

What if I don’t want to fund other people’s irresponsibility? “Well, we’ve got guns and jails, so you’ll pay or else!” Like most liberals, since they can’t convince someone to cooperate, they resort to violence.

This is the best paragraph of your little rant.
Now it’s the LIBERALS that are using the guns and jails to forward their agenda? Politics changes so quickly these days.
Isn’t the government funding their own irresponsibility, since they allowed the city to be built there in the first place?
I’m confused, would you care to elaborate?

[/quote]

Hmmm… I’m telling you all to be free and I’m being attacked. Okay, cool.

Look, the philosophy of liberals has been that government should be used to solve problems. For example, LBJ’s Great Society Program. Government grows and so do its extortions. Now, would you voluntarily pay your income taxes to support this? Some would, surely. Many will not. The government then uses the threat of confiscation, jail, guns, to force those people to comply.

The former residents of New Orleans are demanding that you pay for their choice. They chose to live in a dangerous place. They gambled that the levees would hold and that they could live in a city that should actually be underwater. They were wrong. If someone decided to bet their life savings at a roulette wheel, are you responsible for them if they lose?

I don’t wish to pay for someone else’s irresponsibility. They made a choice. Now, they should have to rely on private charity for help. Their need does not give them the right to get the government to point a gun at my head.

Clear?

33

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
Do you also object to being forced to pay for the establishment of better lives for people in Iraq? Because something tells me that’s costing quite a bit more…yet you choose to whine and bitch about this.[/quote]

Good point. I would hope they are also for pulling all of our troops out of Iraq as well, otherwise, the hypocrisy in this thread will be damn near suffocating.

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Speaking about bullshit, Prof, you should know more about that than anyone.

As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
What I am saying is: by all means help those in need. But when someone CLAIMS my earnings as their due, as their right, then THEY are speaking bullshit. They are functioning at the level of parasites and I will resist that.

Exactly…so I hope you aren’t burdening the rest of society with your car and health insurance. I know you would never take part in such a potentially parasitic activity.[/quote]

Answer, don’t evade. You are a doctor. You have more than most. According to the ethics of Parasitism, you can and should be forced to help those of lesser ability and more need. Remember, need comes first, no matter who actually earned the money, worked hard, and so forth. Answer the question, Prof.

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
Do you also object to being forced to pay for the establishment of better lives for people in Iraq? Because something tells me that’s costing quite a bit more…yet you choose to whine and bitch about this.

Good point. I would hope they are also for pulling all of our troops out of Iraq as well, otherwise, the hypocrisy in this thread will be damn near suffocating.[/quote]

You obviously are not reading anything I posted earlier. I am in favor of those who do not wish to support the war not have to fund same. Man, both of you guys should read, not just spout.

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m not the one claiming no one needs assistance and that, in the case of a natural disaster, they should take care of themselves. YOU ARE. Therefore, I don’t want YOU taking any more of my money. If that is too hard to understand, it isn’t because it is a difficult subject. You are a hypocrite for taking part in similar activities to the same ones you are bitching about.[/quote]

I am neither:

a) claiming NO ONE needs assistance; or
b)“bitching” about anyone.

What I AM claiming is that it is unconstitutional and immoral for the government to coerce wealth from one party and give it to another, for ANY REASON. If you think that this practice is just fine and dandy, I am not going try to convince you otherwise, but I will question your understanding of the purpose and scope of government as articulated by the founding fathers of this country. But then I guess they don’t teach that old dead white guy stuff anymore, do they?

You have no fucking idea how much of my money I do or do not VOLUNTARILY give away to people in many different types of need (on top of what the government already takes from me at the threat of deadly force), and until you do your accusation of hypocrite rings hollow.

And amazingly, by some bizarre twist of logic, you are able to equate insurance premiums with taxation? In case you weren’t aware, the penalty for not paying an insurance premium is the loss of your insurance policy. Try not paying your taxes and see what happens. Come to think of it, since it is the welfare class, such as we are talking about vis-a-vis Katrina, that seems to commit a disproportionate percentage of crime (and they are also fatter, smoke more and are more likely to abuse drugs), THEY are probably driving up your car, property and health insurance, right along with mine. Therefore, you are now arguing with yourself.

Now, please go find someone else to harass with your silly arguments, pointless tangents and baseless accusations.

Did you bother to read the Davy Crockett speech?

37

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I think you are spouting mostly bullshit. Yes, I do think individuals should take more personal responsibility, however, do I see a reason to avoid helping the victims of these storms through higher taxes? No, I don’t. They need help. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Speaking about bullshit, Prof, you should know more about that than anyone.

As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
What I am saying is: by all means help those in need. But when someone CLAIMS my earnings as their due, as their right, then THEY are speaking bullshit. They are functioning at the level of parasites and I will resist that.

Exactly…so I hope you aren’t burdening the rest of society with your car and health insurance. I know you would never take part in such a potentially parasitic activity.

Answer, don’t evade. You are a doctor. You have more than most. According to the ethics of Parasitism, you can and should be forced to help those of lesser ability and more need. Remember, need comes first, no matter who actually earned the money, worked hard, and so forth. Answer the question, Prof.

[/quote]

No one is evading your question. It has been answered but let’s make it extra clear for you. You wrote:

[quote]As for the rest, why is their need a claim on your earnings? You’re certainly free to help all you want. Do you want your moral purity ‘tainted’ because you were forced, via taxation?
[/quote]

My “moral purity” isn’t tainted at all. I have no problem with helping these people and I believe a society to only function if there is a sense of unity. Otherwise, you get anarchy. I am for helping these people. I am wondering how a man who is a teacher, one of the lesser financially rewarding careers, is so against helping others. What exactly is your cut off point? How about the students in your classes? Are they too old to get some help if needed? If one of your students came to school regularly and never had lunch, would you even help them get on the assisted meal plan…or would you consider this the action of a parasite?

38

[quote]Fonebone wrote:
In case you weren’t aware, the penalty for not paying an insurance premium is the loss of your insurance policy. Try not paying your taxes and see what happens. [/quote]

So, you can legally drive without insurance?

[quote]
Come to think of it, since it is the welfare class, such as we are talking about vis-a-vis Katrina, that seems to commit a disproportionate percentage of crime (and they are also fatter, smoke more and are more likely to abuse drugs), THEY are probably driving up your car, property and health insurance, right along with mine. Therefore, you are now arguing with yourself.

Now, please go find someone else to harass with your silly arguments, pointless tangents and baseless accusations.

Did you bother to read the Davy Crockett speech?[/quote]

Silly arguments? The actions of the thieves in Florida were brought up…and not a word came from you in a rant about them. How did the Katrina victims deserve a rant thread over the people in Florida stealing insurance money? Do I smell bias…or just bullshit?

39

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, you can legally drive without insurance?[/quote]

Nope. But you’ll get caught not paying your taxes a hell of a lot faster, and the penalty is a fine, versus the potential confiscation of your home and property. By the way, if I HAVE to buy insurance, am I still a hypocrite?

Well, considering that I didn’t start the thread…

Oh, no. They piss me off too. As do the douchebags who make false FEMA claims (as well as the government who enables them).

I’m just curious. Do you think, if we were to meet in person, we’d get along? I’d like to think we would.

40

[quote]Fonebone wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, you can legally drive without insurance?

Nope. But you’ll get caught not paying your taxes a hell of a lot faster. By the way, if I HAVE to buy insurance, am I still a hypocrite?

How did the Katrina victims deserve a rant thread over the people in Florida stealing insurance money

Well, considering that I didn’t start the thread…

Do I smell bias…or just bullshit?

Oh, no. They piss me off too. As do the douchebags who make false FEMA claims (as well as the government who enables them).

I’m just curious. Do you think, if we were to meet in person, we’d get along? I’d like to think we would.[/quote]

The only people on this board that I probably would not get along with are Zeb and Oogy.