The Real Cuba

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
41

Do some research on what non-aligned means before you scoff at it.

That said, your picture of Fidel and Nikita looking cuddly does little to change the facts of HOW and WHY that friendship developed. Castro was not a communist! He came to the U.S. after his victory over the tyrant Batista and was snubbed by Ike who left him to talk to that notorious Commie-lover, Nixon, who declared that he wasn’t a Commie (just “naive”)! It was only after diplomatic bungling by the U.S. that Castro turned to the Soviets. Some basic high-school level research into the larger economic/political situation and the ways in which Ike screwed the situation up should clear up your misunderstandings about the rise of Castro.

So now what? Maybe some economic negotiating (in good faith…as if!) might help. Hell, I’d wager that Castro’s grip on power would crumble if the U.S. lifted its travel ban and economic sanctions against Cuba! Beat them with our wonderful “market economy” instead of pouting around because they nationalized their economic resources, thus putting the mafia and their henchmen out of power. It would sure work better than Bay of Pigs and probably better than the failure that is the current U.S. policy toward Cuba.

42

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
Any Cuban that has had dealings with the CIA is a traitor??? You would have absolutely no idea what laying your life on the line for your country is like… Please, I can only clench my teeth to think that there are honorable soldiers dying out there trying to protect the freedoms of people like you. It disgusts me to see people like yourself take advantage of everything democracy has to offer yet shit on it and your government any chance you get.

You know something, I’ve got an idea, why don’t all the commie bastards living among us just get the hell out of here…Go to Eastern Europe or something, or maybe Cuba, from what I hear on this forum, you all think it and Castro are so great…have at it! I’m sure the 1 oz of rice and next to 0.0 oz. of meat will suit all you bodybuilders just fine…Please man…give me a break.

My real response is soon to follow, no time, I’m too busy making money in this glorious capitalist system we have here!

Damn! Where’s Reagan when we need him.

[/quote]

But…

if it wasn’t for the US, Castro wouldn’t have turned to the USSR…

And if it wasn’t for the trade embargo, there wouldn’t be a need for rations…

And no one has defended Castro, but I am stating clearly, I’d rather Castro than give my country over to the mafia again…

You claim to have love for your “family’s homeland?” You are a traitor, plain and simple. The US has been responsible for innumerable acts of terrorism against Cuba, killing innocent people, just trying to get by. But you gusanos are more worried about lining your pockets than you are about other Cubans, huh? Do everyone a favour, and don’t try to mask your greed as patriotism.

I am all for democracy, and the assumptions you make about me are groundless. Cut the rhetoric, and all that other BS about “honorable soldiers dying on the fields of battle”. We are talking about Cuba. Leave the americans out of it. Simple. I’m sure most americans would object to Cuba establishing a puppet regime in the US, and if it’s good for the goose…

But I suppose that’s the issue, isn’t it? You claim to be Cuban, but I wonder if you’ve lived a day in your life there. I’d bet no, based solely on how terribly out of touch you are.

43

[quote]battlelust wrote:
Do some research on what non-aligned means before you scoff at it.

That said, your picture of Fidel and Nikita looking cuddly does little to change the facts of HOW and WHY that friendship developed. Castro was not a communist! He came to the U.S. after his victory over the tyrant Batista and was snubbed by Ike who left him to talk to that notorious Commie-lover, Nixon, who declared that he wasn’t a Commie (just “naive”)! It was only after diplomatic bungling by the U.S. that Castro turned to the Soviets. Some basic high-school level research into the larger economic/political situation and the ways in which Ike screwed the situation up should clear up your misunderstandings about the rise of Castro.

So now what? Maybe some economic negotiating (in good faith…as if!) might help. Hell, I’d wager that Castro’s grip on power would crumble if the U.S. lifted its travel ban and economic sanctions against Cuba! Beat them with our wonderful “market economy” instead of pouting around because they nationalized their economic resources, thus putting the mafia and their henchmen out of power. It would sure work better than Bay of Pigs and probably better than the failure that is the current U.S. policy toward Cuba. [/quote]

Exactly!

But I imagine this message would be hard to accept if your family were the mafia and the henchmen.

44

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
Any Cuban that has had dealings with the CIA is a traitor??? You would have absolutely no idea what laying your life on the line for your country is like… Please, I can only clench my teeth to think that there are honorable soldiers dying out there trying to protect the freedoms of people like you. It disgusts me to see people like yourself take advantage of everything democracy has to offer yet shit on it and your government any chance you get.

You know something, I’ve got an idea, why don’t all the commie bastards living among us just get the hell out of here…Go to Eastern Europe or something, or maybe Cuba, from what I hear on this forum, you all think it and Castro are so great…have at it! I’m sure the 1 oz of rice and next to 0.0 oz. of meat will suit all you bodybuilders just fine…Please man…give me a break.

My real response is soon to follow, no time, I’m too busy making money in this glorious capitalist system we have here!

Damn! Where’s Reagan when we need him.

[/quote]

I’m just waiting for him to declare “Say hello to my lil fren.”!

45

Cuba, as a nation, as a society, as an economy, has DROPPED since the reighn of Castro. One benefit, and only one benefit is a higher literacy rate (lietracy rates in pre-castro times were already the second highest in latin america). Healthcare, which the cuban government and lovers of fidel declare has improved is in fact worse. Ask any recent arrival from cuba, and they will tell you the disaster that exists. I could cite endless statistics on how cuba was better off 50 years ago but if you are so interested, you can check out Cuba Confidential, the book, for some basic facts. It is a very unbiased work, and reveals much of the dark side of our society, as well as the good. Its a decent starting point for your research, although by no means an endpoint.

In reality, the economy in actual terms has SHRANK since 1950. No, not slowed, SHRANK. An amazing feat for a country so well placed and blessed by nature. Life expectancy, education, healthcare, and economic measures on many levels might have risen in the last 50 years, but they have not risen PROPORTIONATELY to where they were 50 years ago, but rather have grown as a natural progression of population growth and such. On many fronts they have shrank in actual, non-nominal terms. On most fronts they have dropped in rankings as compared to other countries.

Fidel by the wya is not a communist. Fidel is a surviver. He plays diplomacy like a perfect Machiavelian. The move to the U.S.S.R. came about because the russians offered him a better package and better support to him and a government under HIM, and because of the acclaim it would bring him.

I’m a bit rushed if not i would gives you guys more info, sorry. But quite frankly i think many peopel here simply do not understand the situation. Not that your expected to, its impossible to know everything about everything. But, if you don’t really know what your talking about. . .don’t give a fu$king opinion. I respect all other educated opinions, even if opposed to mine.

46

And no one has defended Castro, but I am stating clearly, I’d rather Castro than give my country over to the mafia again…

-Pre-castro government were corrupt, yes. But they still offered their people a better life. Statistics, history, and person-to-person prove this. I understand you are the child of campesino family. But, you have to understand nowhere in the world does a country exist without some at poverty (luxenburg and monte carlo dont count). The beauty is that in pre-castro cuba a man could, through his own ambition and talent, rise above the rest and himself become great. I nkow this becasue my family, pennyless immigrants from islas canarias, made their fortunes in Cuba. Under castro, no one but the highest bootlickers of the party can rise to meet their ambitions.

You claim to have love for your “family’s homeland?” You are a traitor, plain and simple. The US has been responsible for innumerable acts of terrorism against Cuba, killing innocent people, just trying to get by. But you gusanos are more worried about lining your pockets than you are about other Cubans, huh? Do everyone a favour, and don’t try to mask your greed as patriotism.

-Castro has murdered more cubans then the U.S. ever has. Again to be proven by history and statistics. Gusanos? Are you really going to be so simple minded as to bring it to this level? Despite your moronic comment, i will ignore it and be the better man. Let me advise you most peeple whom u call “gusanos” left because Castro stole everythnig they had through government programs, and because they believed in a poltical idea much more just and glorious then Castro’s self-serving machine.

But I suppose that’s the issue, isn’t it? You claim to be Cuban, but I wonder if you’ve lived a day in your life there. I’d bet no, based solely on how terribly out of touch you are.[/quote]

I have never been to Cuba, but i assure you the blood burns just as strong in my veins as in yours. Also, i base my opinions on the extensive reserach i have done. I have never been no, but i don’t need to be to udnertsand what is WRONG

47

Quebola, I think your last post was one of the most accurate on this thread. It’s admitting there are a myriad of complexities involved. Not coming off like a know it all punk making blanket statements about democrats and casting ridiculous insults.

48

I agree, Quebola is on the mark. There is been terrible misallocation of resources for decades, and Cuba could have been much further along than it is.

Of course, I think most (real) Cubans have a lot of ambivalence towards Castro. Sure, he is responsible for all sorts of autrocities, and he pimped the country out to the USSR, rising total annihilationm just to keep himself in power.

On the other hand, he has protected the country from US influence, and he is the one that got rid of the mafia.

I don’t see how anyone can not understand how working with the CIA against Cuba is treason, though. My father is anti-Castro. How did he react to it? He resigned from the PCC, and explained his reasons. There are a lot of other people who have gone a step further, protesting against Castro’s oppression, and being imprisoned for it. That takes balls. But then the gusano trash in Miami starts bringing in the CIA, and trying to pressure the US into taking direct action. Cowards. This is a Cuban problem. Let Cubans deal with it.

And you really shouldn’t talk about the CIA affiliation in your family. It’s a disgrace, and you’ll find Cubans will react to it quite negatively. It’s like bragging about having an uncle in al-queda in the US: it’s just not a good way to make friends.

49

[quote]quebola wrote:
And no one has defended Castro, but I am stating clearly, I’d rather Castro than give my country over to the mafia again…

-Pre-castro government were corrupt, yes. But they still offered their people a better life. Statistics, history, and person-to-person prove this. I understand you are the child of campesino family. But, you have to understand nowhere in the world does a country exist without some at poverty (luxenburg and monte carlo dont count). The beauty is that in pre-castro cuba a man could, through his own ambition and talent, rise above the rest and himself become great. I nkow this becasue my family, pennyless immigrants from islas canarias, made their fortunes in Cuba. Under castro, no one but the highest bootlickers of the party can rise to meet their ambitions.
[/quote]

While that was true in Havana, and other cities, as you acknowledge, if you were a campesino, you were screwed. Also, how important is personal freedom without dignity? It’s something Cuba lacked before the revolution, lacked during the affiliation with the USSR, and still lacks today, with the tourists acting like “Johns”. And then also it’s an issue of national sovereignty. We didn’t need the US is 1898, and we don’t need them now.

My family left, too. To me, it’s not an issue of staying vs. leaving, it has to do with where your loyalties lie. You don’t have to betray your country to the enemy (sorry, americans, this means you) in order to be against Castro. Here we have a guy bragging about his family’s involvement with the CIA. I call his family gusanos. Do you have a better word for it? At the same time, I know many, many Cubans who have defected in Canada, and the word is not applicable to any of them. They left because they didn’t like their life in Cuba. Now they live in Canada, and they like it.

Honestly, you have NO IDEA what is wrong. You’ll here tidbits now and then, but you really can’t imagine the severity of things. My mother was caught in a pro-Castro riot when she was pregnant with my sister, and those animals almost cost her her child. My father made it to officer in the Cuban Navy before managing to get out, and he has stories that would make you sick to your stomach. Did you know about the concentration camps, where they send the military’s social misfits? There are horrible things going on in Cuba, and because of them, I look forward to a change in regime. But not at the cost of our soverignty.

A bit off topic, but were your parents (or grand-parents?) escaping Franco when they moved to Cuba?

50

Since there have been more than just a couple of responses to the many questions posed throughout this thread, I’ve decided to answer them one-by-one, as best I can, to try and clear some the garbage that has been said. If you have posted on this thread, please continue reading, as something you have said will probably be referenced…Enjoy!

First off, my family was one of campesinos or “guajiros” from Camaguey on one side, and mechanics on the other. Really lining our pockets with Batista mafia money!!! Comemierdas…

Cuba was better off before Castro??? (which seems to be the main topic of CONFUSION)
Here are a few FACTS (cited
naturally):

-“By April 1959, Cuban jails held five times the number of political prisoners as they had under Fulgencio Batista.” (FIDEL, 2005)

In 1955, a murderer and terrorist was in a Cuban jail (note Date?s throughout people!!!). I’ll let the prisoner himself, FIDEL CASTRO, describe a Batista-era JAIL: “I feel like I’m on vacation!” No one ever got the same impression from one of Castro’s jails. It gets better though. “Tonight it’s angel hair pasta with calamari in red sauce and some Italian chocolates for dinner followed by an excellent cigar. Tomorrow morning I’ll be in the courtyard again lying in a lounge chair in my shorts feeling the sea breeze in my face. Sometimes I think I’m on vacation.” (FIDEL, 2005)

-It was not until Fidel Castro that Cuba experienced the highest rate of emigration, per capita, of any nation in the Western Hemisphere, in the twentieth century. Just a reminder- Batista’s Cuba had the second highest per capita income in Latin America (higher than Austria’s or Japan’s) as well as net immigration (in 1958, for example, the Cuban embassy in Rome had applications from twelve thousand Italians for immigrant visas). Castro’s Cuba, on the other hand, has the highest political incarceration rate on Earth! (As of 1995, 500,000 prisoners had passed through Castro’s gulag, according to the Human rights organization Freedom House) Given Cuba’s population, Castro incarcerated at a higher rate than Stalin and is shunned even by Haitian refugees.

Fun Fact! Did you know that Castro is famous for being responsible for the longest incarceration of a BLACK political prisoner in history. His name is Eusebio Pe?alver, and he served longer in Castro?s dungeons than Nelson Mandela served in South Africa. (Read more books fools!)

This leads me to a hilarious point. The fact that Alice Walker, Jesse Jackson, Kweisi Mfume, Danny Glover, and Maxine Waters are supporters of the bloody crimes of a regime where 82 percent of the prison population is black and exactly .08 percent of the ruling Communist party is black?C?mon Jesse, get with the program!

I?m living like a dog in Cuba!? That?s former BLACK PANTHER Garland Grant, who hijacked a plane to Cuba in 1971. ?I just want to get back to the United States! Just open my cell door, I?ll walk in! Here in Cuba the guards beat the shit out of me, bashed out one of my eyes! They killed my buddy, just smashed his head against the wall, nothing to it, no inquiry, no nothing. Hell these Communists can?t do anything more to me that they haven?t already done, except put a bullet in my head! There is more racism here in Communist Cuba then in the worst parts of Mississippi!!! Cuba ain?t what people think. I?d rather be in jail in the U.S. than free here!?
Both these men found themselves in Castro?s jails soon after getting there. It seems they tried to use the same attitude towards Castro?s police as they had against U.S. cops.
Oh yeah, but the literacy rate is great! Fucking jokes you are?

Back to some more FACTS:
How much U.S. backing was there before Castro (During the Batista years)???

Let?s see shall we. Only 5 percent if INVESTED capital in Cuba in 1958 was American, and less than one-third of Cuba?s sugar output was by U.S. companies. Cuba had a grand total of nine gambling casinos in 1958. Gulfport-Biloxi, Mississippi, have double that number today. Chew on this one: In 1957, when it was touted as the ?playground? for Americans, Cuba hosted a grand total of 272,265 U.S. tourists. That year more Cubans vacationed in the United States than Americans vacationed in Cuba. We had a ?playground? too. I?m sure they were ALL Batista-loving mafioso?s vacationing with stolen money right? Haha, Enfermo mental!

-Back in the Batista days, so many hundreds of thousands of Spaniards sought immigration to Cuba flustered Cuban officials finally imposed QUOTAS to stem the flood of Europeans wanting to live there. From 1910 to 1953, Cuba took in more than one million Spanish immigrants (along with 65,000 immigrants from the UNITED STATES!) Al those Americans must have been really looking forward to living in such HORRIBLE place!!!

All of this is NO apology for Batista. Cuba’s prosperity, it’s civil institutions (including a completely independent judiciary), and its free vibrant media were in spite of having a political hoodlum at the helm. No doubt about that, but Batistiano POLITICAL rule was benevolent compared to Fidelista EVERYTHING rule.

Cuban Americans hear Batista compared to Castro in practically every political conversation: “Hey, both were dictators, right? And Cuba was horribly poor and exploited back then right? So what?s the big deal? At least now people have pride, free health care, free education…” Are you kidding me???
-You find me a country - and not just in Latin America, but anywhere - that in its FIRST fifty years of independence climbed to the world’s top 10 percent in almost every socioeconomic indicator, as Cuba did. Go ahead, show me one…I’ll wait…

“In the late 1950’s, Cuba had a political problem, not a socioeconomic one. Overall, Cuba was rich, her people healthy and well-educated. Cuba’s gold reserves covered its monetary reserves to the last penny. But that’s only half the story, because Cuba labor laws were among the most advanced in the world. Cuban labor got a higher percentage of the national GNP than in Switzerland at the time.”

And regarding that vaunted Castroite health care we hear and read about constantly: In 1957, Cuba’s infant mortality rate was the LOWEST in Latin America and the thirteenth lowest in the world. It was ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal in that department. Now, (and using Castro’s own inflated figures) it’s TWENTY-FOURTH in the world. And this with 60.4 of Cuba’s pregnancies ending in abortion (Huh, makes you think why they don?t want to bring anyone else into this ?World?) which also skews mortality rates downward. For you American History fans out there: In 1957, Cuba had TWICE as many physicians and teachers in relation to population as the U.S. It ranked first in Latin America in NATIONAL income invested in EDUCATION and it’s literacy rate was 80% In 1958, Cuba even had more female college graduates (to scale) than the United States.

I love hearing this one, as we have several times already here:
“Castro threw out and SOB and liberated Cuba.” Liberated Cuba from what? There were no ration cards or food shortages under Batista. There was no totalitarian control of the media. I’ll quote a U.S. State Department document here: "It is no exaggeration to state that during the 1950’s, the Cuban people were among the most informed in the world, living in an uncharacteristically large media market for such a small country. Cubans had a choice of 58 DAILY newspapers during the 1950’s, according to a statistical yearbook over at the UN.

Now this does not mean that living under an authoritarian system is good, but it does show that is definitely better than a totalitarian system. In Jeane Kirkpatrick’s book “Dictatorships and Double Standards,” she distinguishes authoritarian from totalitarian rule: "Authoritarian regimes (Batista, if you will) do not disturb that habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations…Totalitarian regimes (your friend, Castro) claim that the state has jurisdiction over THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY - that includes religion (religion NOT allowed in Cuba under Castro), family, and the economy.

With all that said, Batista doesn’t even qualify as Authoritarian. He was certainly no Franco or Pinochet, or even a Stroessner or Peron. Had he extinguished Castro’s rebels like a true dictator, like Castro has proven to do, then Miami jukeboxes would feature a lot more Tanya Tucker than Gloria Estefan.

Ok, next point…

Vroom, you speak of my views of Socialism and Communism assuming that I hate all government involvement or something. Shit, you’re quite mistaken. Using your example of the depression, I think the United States was more than limited in options and government intervention worked. Most of you may think because I speak with such passion about my convictions, that I’m blinded by my ideals or hate for communism, but you’re wrong. I’m definitely conservative but have several views some would even consider leftist! Shit, I think the government should legalize pot, regulate it, and tax the shit out of it! So please, spare me the infantile sarcasm…

I?m quoting you (Vroom) here: ?Also, let?s now worry about the rights and freedoms of individuals to do as they please. No, we’d hate to let everyone think on their own and reach their own conclusions and voice them. That would be horrid.? Are you kidding me man??? I?m sure communism allows for full freedom of the press, religion, freedom of speech?This comment tops out as either the most ill-timed or just plain ignorant comments I have ever heard?What are they teaching in Canada these days???

Onward?

Elkhntr1,
To answer your question without wasting the most valuable resource I have, my time? As for implying that you were ignorant because you were from Colorado, it was not intended, and for that I apologize. I love Colorado. What I WAS implying was that you ARE ignorant because of your responses. If you even got the point of my skiing anecdote, you would remember that the gentleman on the lift was the one who casually blurted out: ?Oh, yeah, those damn, dirty Cubans?? That?s not stereotypes and blatant racism??? Please?
About me using my family?s wealth to make me look/feel superior to you, that was also not intended. I just wanted to illustrate that Cubans (most anyway) are hard-working, intelligent people. Even though the (I hope he wasn?t a local for your sake) guy thought we were fine-looking, upstanding Americans, until he found out we were Cuban?I guess there are some preconceived notions going around…hmmmm

By no means do I think that my family/culture?s story/history or even present day situation for that matter should be the focal of your life, to assume I implied that demonstrates MENSA capabilities on your part?You think I don?t have other issues or priorities more relevant to my daily ?HATE FILLED? life??? I guess putting myself through law school doesn?t require too much attention. All of it can be left to hating Fidel, Liberals, and maybe just mentally inept people in general. (Cited: This forum, 2005)

All of that said, that does not mean I do not read about/study/research or care about what any one of the other dozen or so cultures that live in this country do. Even those in those not-so-diverse regions in say?the Midwest?Most Americans refuse to even begin to learn about Cuban Americans living here or about the situation on the island 90 miles from their coast?Hence, perpetual ignorance. Please, go take care of all those important life priorities and leave the grown-up talk for the big folks?

NEXT!

Getgot211
Honestly, I didn?t know whether to laugh out loud at what you wrote, or actually take you seriously?no lie?Seeing as how you live in Minnesota you obviously have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. Me, foolish? Haha?At this point, I have shown this post to several of my friends (all political science majors/grads) including 3 conservatives and 7 democrats. All but 2 laughed. The other two actually stood in shock. One girl (liberal) said: ?this was one of the grossest displays of communist propaganda I have ever heard in my life!? Get your facts straight you say? Why don?t you do YOURSELF a favor, because I couldn?t care less, and slap some snow booties on and head down to Barnes and Nobles. I suggest you bone up a bit guy, you?re horribly slipping?

?How many opposed to Cuba actually know anything about it??? (My favorite post of all!) You have now read the most obviously not though-out comment on earth! Think about it a second?Who are those opposed to Communist Cuba/Castro??? I?m pretty sure the several hundred thousand Cuban exiles all over the U.S. would qualify as a good start right? Ok, I guess they wouldn?t know a damn thing about it, actually having experienced the horrors of communism first hand, and having been forced to flee from their home?Not a thing for sure? That?s like telling someone who was a survivor of the Holocaust that it wasn?t THAT bad. Comemierda!

-At this point folks (or Getgot211 specifically), the reality of your ignorance should be sinking in, for this I pity you?Actually, that?s probably wishful thinking though, considering your obviously of the Marxist persuasion.

Sad?just sad?Oh yeah, don?t forget your ration card?

Some more FACTS for those communist sympathizers in among us (Battlelust, Aleksandr, Getgot211?) Enjoy comrades!

For all of you that think that Castro was PUSHED to the USSR and that it?s the United States fault and all this bullshit. Please people, read!!! Castro has had a life-long hatred for the U.S. and he has made no attempt to hide this?proceed reading?

In 1957 (note dates again!), Fidel Castro wrote a letter to a friend in the Soviet Union (published, mind you) ?War against the United States is my true destiny. When this war?s over I?ll start that much bigger and wider war.? ?The much bigger war against America is my DESTINY!? ? Courtesy once again by Fidel Castro himself!

?My dream is to drop three atomic bombs on New York.? 1960 - Raul Castro, Fidel Brother, and possible successor. Nice guys, huh?

Early on in his career as a revolutionary and terrorist, (many don?t know about the 100+ people he killed when he led a terrorist attack against the Moncada Army barracks in early 1953) Castro targeted Americans. Even before the Cuban revolution, he stole $2 Billion in U.S. property and riddled dozens of Americans with bullets from firing squads. In 1958, Castro?s July 26th movement kidnapped fifty Americans near Guantanamo naval base. Mostly Marines and Navy men on leave.

Let the FACTS continue: Declassified Soviet documents ? and Nikita Khrushchev?s own memoirs (go read) ? show that Castro pleaded with Khrushchev to launch a preemptive nuclear strike against the U.S. Oh but we pushed him away?bad embargo?bad?

On October 27, Castro sent a coded telegram to Khrushchev. ?We have solid intelligence that the U.S. attack is coming within twenty-four to seventy-two hours,? he obviously lied. ?Strike first, it?s an act of self defense ? there is no other solution!? All from a man you think was betrayed by the US or something?Get real mongos!

I?m sure none of you know this: When Khrushchev took away the nukes, Castro went crazy, kicking walls, smashing glasses, breaking mirrors and windows. The reason for Castro?s fit was revealed the following month by his sidekick, Che Guevara. ?If the missiles had remained,? the campus poster boy and vodka salesman told THE LONDON DAILY WORKER in November 1962, ?we would have used them against the very heart of the U.S., including New York (9/11 would?ve looked pretty weak in comparison). We must never establish peaceful coexistence. In this struggle to the DEATH between two systems we must gain the ultimate victory. We must walk the path of liberation even if it costs millions of atomic victims.? This coming from a man who proudly named himself ?Stalin II.?

I?m filled with hate?!? Do your homework infeliz.

The best part is that the people who wear his t-shirts??? Peace protestors! Hahahaha

The embargo!!! I forgot! Here goes: ?The Cuban embargo is the stupidest law ever passed in the United States, ? said Jimmy Carter, who when he was in the White House (recall his ?Human rights? foreign policy) imposed embargoes against South Africa, Rhodesia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Argentina, Chile, and Nicaragua. Someone remind me; What terrible threat did Rhodesia ? which fought on the allied side in both World wars and offered to fight along side us in Vietnam ? ever present to the United States. When did apartheid-era South African firing squads shoot down scores of U.S. citizens, or steal $1.8 Billion from American citizens, or travel to Cu Loc prison outside Hanoi to join in torturing AMERICAN POW?s to death, like Castro?s Cuba did?

In Latin America, when did Uruguay, or Paraguay, or Augusto Pinochet?s Chile, or Anastasio Somoza?s Nicaragua ever point Nuclear missiles at us???

Ponder this for a second friends: BEFORE Castro, more Americans lived in Cuba than Cubans in the United States. Cuba went from being the Western Hemispheric nation with the HIGHEST per capita immigration rate, (yes higher than the United States, including the Ellis Island years) to one where 20 percent of the population fled, and where probably 80 percent sought to flee.

In a film titled ?Cursed Be Your name, Liberty,? Cuban exile Vladimir Ceballos exposes a grim and almost inconceivable episode. Back in the 1980?s, young people who listened (or tried to listen) to American rock music ? to Bonnie Raitt, Carole King, and Jimmy Buffet ? were called ?roqueros? and were special targets of the police. They were constantly harassed, beaten, and jailed. Ceballos?s film documents how more than one hundred of these ?roqueros? deliberately injected themselves with the AIDS virus. It sounds stupid, horrible, and unreal, I agree. But to these people, banishment to an AIDS sanatorium (typical practice to patients in Cuba?humane?) was a taste of freedom. One scene shows a victim holding a small, crumpled American flag. With trembling hands, he scrubs it clean and lays it on his emaciated chest. He gave himself AIDS because it brought him a few years of life in the equivalent of a U.S. federal prison. How bad must something get before someone does something like this??? Really people?

Moving on steadily?Another Fun fact! ?By mid 1961, the binding and blindfolding of Castro and Che?s enemies wasn?t enough. Castro firing squads demanded that their victims be gagged too, because the shouts of the heroes they murdered badly spooked them? (From the mouth of one of Castro?s own former killers/henchman)

I love it when the left so intelligently proves my points for me. For example: The insane ignorance of the Liberal Left and Hollywood in particular is evident on a daily basis. Take director Sydney Pollack, and actor Robert Redford. In their film ?Havana.? They cast Fulgencio Batista as looking like an American businessman, with hair and eyes the same hue as Redford?s. Tey must have been embarrassed when, years later, they found out he was BLACK! (I?m sure something most if not all here DID NOT know) How are these people supposed to sound like legitimate authorities on politics, or communism specifically for that matter, when they don?t even know what race this supreme Mafioso Batista was!!!

Here?s the story of a woman, who undoubtedly knows NOTHING about what an oppressive world Fidel has built on the island? Her name is Maria Garcia, and she lost her 10-year old son, brother, husband, sister, two uncles, and three cousins when Castro ordered his Coast Guard to sink a tugboat full of civilians he found fleeing of the coast of Cuba one night. Instead of just returning ?HIS? citizens, of ?HIS? country, he made sure the water cannons from the Coast Guard vessels kept people?s heads under the water. In all, 43 people drown in the incident, but you?ve probably never heard about it. Or maybe when he shot down two civilian Cesna?s in INTERNATIONAL waters, who were flying a humanitarian mission looking for what else? Cuban rafters risking their lives in the Gulf to escape this madman. This from a man who?s all for Human rights??? ?right.

Sure, Castro sinks the boats of fleeing Cubans and jails his subjects who try to escape him ? But it?s ALL America?s fault, right? Damn that embargo once again!

Reminder ? Reading and researching a topic before you spew bullshit about it prevents you from looking like a complete jackass on internet forums.

On a side, and final note?

Aleksandr,
You have absolutely no idea what being a patriot is like?You talk fucking garbage like you actually know something. Hearing 3-4 stories from daddy about how bad things were in pre-Castro Cuba doesn?t qualify you as an authority. You speak of having balls??? The family member I had that was involved in the CIA (who happens to have been appointed Chairman of HIGH U.S. government agency, originally by Clinton no less!) risked his life, at the age of 18, attempting to get information to the U.S. government in 1959-60, when THEY knew he was revealing his communist intent. How dare you say that about my family as if you know all the things they have done, not only for Cuba, but the U.S. If you and your father think that Cuba was worse before Castro, why doesn?t he go back?

You say that working with the CIA ?against? Cuba is being a traitor, let me explain something to you? Those people were trying to stop the spread of communism, mass killings, and human rights violations in their home. Sound familiar? I think World War II had something to do with that? You say your father had balls for resigning his position and walking away??? It sounds to me that he was one of the cowards who did nothing, and just sat back and said ?Oh well, at least it?s better than Batista.? If he lived a day under Castro?s Cuba (the real communist Cuba) he would be singing a different tune believe me.

You say my family and I are traitors - I say we have fought and done more for both countries than you will ever dream of contributing in your life! You wanna know something? That 18 year old traitor happen to grow up to design and build the SDI ?Star Wars? system under President Reagan. Why would the President hire someone like that? Because he is a person of honesty, integrity, morals, and an education that shits on anything I?m sure someone like you has the capability of attaining.

So, my simple-minded friend, I hope you realize that you are not only mistaken in your facts and story, lacking any real truth?but worse, you?re actually defending something you have no knowledge about?refer to earlier reminder to READ more! Why don?t you walk over to your father and ask him this: Why did he really leave Cuba? Honestly? Batista? or Fidel? Why would anyone in their right mind leave a place that has recently been ?liberated,? and a place where the trustworthy Fidel Castro tells you he only brings peace. I think the ration cards came soon after?maybe your dad was gone by then!!!

You are the type of person, that if Cuban (I?m assuming) give the rest of us, hard working, freedom-loving Cubans a bad reputation. I?m ashamed to say that you come from ?similar? lineage as me. (I say ?similar? because I would never degrade my family to the level of Communist-sympathizers) You are the reason most Americans have only negative views of us. Good work guy!

All-in-all, I wanted to write this whole thing to squash the bullshit that circles this place, because it is obvious the contributors so far (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2) have no touch with reality. I thank those who have read this, and those who support freedom. That?s what this boils down to in the end, God damnit?FREEDOM!

Que dios ense?e estos idiotas, maleducados, muertos de hamre sin verguenzas?Los Pobres?

-VIVA CUBA LIBRE!!!

51

wetdrmscap,

Never let them forget the horrors of Castro and communism. Good job.

52

[quote]Phileaux wrote:
I know it helped to fund Castro but I am glad I got to see Cuba before the trade doors opened and there will be a KFC an Micky D on every other corner. [/quote]

Millions of Cubans live in fear and poverty with no hope of a better life. They watch their children go hungry or prostitute themselves to survive. They live in filth, shame and despondency, without basic rights or freedoms.

But don?t worry; I am sure all Cubans are pleased to have made those sacrifices for the sake of your authentic vacation free of offensive Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants.

53

[quote]battlelust wrote:
Do some research on what non-aligned means before you scoff at it.

That said, your picture of Fidel and Nikita looking cuddly does little to change the facts of HOW and WHY that friendship developed. Castro was not a communist! He came to the U.S. after his victory over the tyrant Batista and was snubbed by Ike who left him to talk to that notorious Commie-lover, Nixon, who declared that he wasn’t a Commie (just “naive”)! It was only after diplomatic bungling by the U.S. that Castro turned to the Soviets. Some basic high-school level research into the larger economic/political situation and the ways in which Ike screwed the situation up should clear up your misunderstandings about the rise of Castro.

So now what? Maybe some economic negotiating (in good faith…as if!) might help. Hell, I’d wager that Castro’s grip on power would crumble if the U.S. lifted its travel ban and economic sanctions against Cuba! Beat them with our wonderful “market economy” instead of pouting around because they nationalized their economic resources, thus putting the mafia and their henchmen out of power. It would sure work better than Bay of Pigs and probably better than the failure that is the current U.S. policy toward Cuba. [/quote]

I’d have to at least agree that our sanctions policy toward Cuba has been an utter and complete failure – the only thing we’ve managed to do is keep average people poorer, while keeping the dictator in power (which is what sanctions generally accomplish, just as in Iraq from 1991 through 2003).

We’ve done much better in terms of opening up Viet Nam and China to a slow road to capitalism by opening relations.

54

I’ll ignore the rest of your post, because it wasn’t directed at me. I’ll just suggest you look up the term “confirmation bias”. I could easily provided give references information contrary to everything you have said.

I am Cuban. You are not. Don’t talk about Cuba, because that’s not your home.

I don’t care why he did it, he turned to the enemy. Just because you don’t like the president’s policies doesn’t mean you turn your country over to the enemy.

I never said it’s better know, or it was better then. But at least Cuba is sovereign.

Yes. This policy has ruined many, many countries. The US interfering in foreign politics, training contras to ficght against popular movements, in order to “protect freedom”? Give me a break.

No idea what you’re talking about… I think you may have skipped too many history classes; Stalin is the one who stopped Hitler…

Believe you? YOU AREN’T CUBAN. My father not only lived in Castro’s Cuba, he was in the Partido Communista de Cuba, and was an officer in the Cuban Navy. He then taught at the University of Havana until he left. He lived through 1993 in Cuba, the worst year in Cuba’s post-revolution history. My father hates Castro for what he did to Cuba, but he loves Cuba, and would not betray it to the Americans.

When he resigned from the PCC, he made it clear that he had not changed his position since the beginning, that it was the party that had changed.

Keep your accolades. I’d rather be a nobody than a traitor.

Because they knew he would probably sell out his own mother in order to ride america’s jock?

You don’t need to have integrity, honesty or morals to do something like that. You just have to be retarded. It’s a stupid idea.

You… are not… Cuban…

Take your own advice. Rather than read more in terms of quantity, try reading more in terms of sources. The one-sidedness of your argument tells me you do not know the other side of the story. Sources other than anti-castro propoganda might be a good start. And for the love of god, figure out what “communism” is before you use that word again.

He left to be with his family. His wife and children (us) left the country (legally), and we needed him, so my mom sponsered him out.

No, my dad lived under Castro for more than 3 decades. Go back to the drawing board

YOU ARE NOT CUBAN

[quote]I?m ashamed to say that you come from ?similar? lineage as me. (I say ?similar? because I would never degrade my family to the level of Communist-sympathizers)
[/quote]

We are not of similar lineages. There are no traitors in my family.

Oh? It’s people like me? I thought it was the inferiority/superiority complex having (they really are the same thing), self-loathing, ass-kissing, out of touch, propoganda-reading, fake-Cubans like you…

55

For example:

US infant mortality: 6.5 deaths per 1,000 live births

Cuban infant mortality rate: 6.33 deaths per 1,000 live births

Source: CIA world factbook

Why are you complaining about Cuba’s infant mortality rate, when it’s lower than the US rate?

56

Out of curiosity, are you black or mulatto Alexsandr? cause my family is Cuban and I have noticed that white, middle class Cubans (especially in Miami) ALL talk about how great Cuba was back in the day, how they all owned a summer home in the country, how there was no racism, etc. Yet black Cubans tend to have a completely different view of what Cuba was like.

by the way, you dont know prejudice towards blacks until you meet some of those same Cubans (unfortunately).

It pains me to say some of these things about my own people, but it is true.

57

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Phileaux wrote:
I know it helped to fund Castro but I am glad I got to see Cuba before the trade doors opened and there will be a KFC an Micky D on every other corner.

Millions of Cubans live in fear and poverty with no hope of a better life. They watch their children go hungry or prostitute themselves to survive. They live in filth, shame and despondency, without basic rights or freedoms.

But don?t worry; I am sure all Cubans are pleased to have made those sacrifices for the sake of your authentic vacation free of offensive Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurants.
[/quote]

Yup, it’s all YOUR fault Phileaux.

58

[quote]jcmia wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you black or mulatto Alexsandr? cause my family is Cuban and I have noticed that white, middle class Cubans (especially in Miami) ALL talk about how great Cuba was back in the day, how they all owned a summer home in the country, how there was no racism, etc. Yet black Cubans tend to have a completely different view of what Cuba was like.

by the way, you dont know prejudice towards blacks until you meet some of those same Cubans (unfortunately).

It pains me to say some of these things about my own people, but it is true. [/quote]

I remember reading a lengthy article in Newsweek some years back (I know evil liberal media outlet) about hispanics in America. They went over each of the predominent latino ethnic groups in our country. Detailing different aspects about them.

I do remember that it referenced and even had comments by Cubans that their Spanish blood lines were more pure and that they are a better class of people then Mexicanos and other groups like Puerto Ricans or Guatemalans.

But, race always plays a part even in similar ethnic groups. Even here in Colorado the native Chicanos have a lot of prejiduce against the illegal and migrant workers that come here.

Again, I have heard that the upper crust Cubans identify more with the white conservatives then the lower economic class latinos which most non Cuban latinos are part of in this country.

59

[quote]
Vroom wrote:
Also, let’s not worry about the rights and freedoms of individuals to do as they please. No, we’d hate to let everyone think on their own and reach their own conclusions and voice them. That would be horrid.

Blind man wrote:
Are you kidding me man??? I?m sure communism allows for full freedom of the press, religion, freedom of speech?This comment tops out as either the most ill-timed or just plain ignorant comments I have ever heard?What are they teaching in Canada these days???[/quote]

What the hell are you smoking? My comment, at least the part you quoted, was referring to concepts of liberalism, letting people do and say what they wish with their lives. Nowhere in that post was I describing communism.

Get a freaking clue!

60

Aleksandr,
I will refrain from making this a really long post as I have already written more than enough on this thread, but mainly because there is only a couple of things I really need to say about your response.

I actually almost feel bad having spent so much time illustrating the truth to those here, in my novel-length post, but ultimately in vain.

Sadly, I guess I was preaching to the lower rung of society, but it’s a whole lot worse. You are nothing more than an low-life, ignorant, brainwashed communist infeliz who’s family has admittedly contributed to the death, encarceration, and enslavement of millions of people. You tell me not to brag about the CIA and what not? Thats nothing! I wouldn’t go around saying my father was a RED who did Castro’s bidding…You say he’s anti-Castro??? Give me a fucking break you asshole, he worked for Castro for 30 years! Worked AGINST HIS OWN PEOPLE, IN HIS OWN COUNTRY! And we sold Cuba out??? Think again

If given the chance, the Cubans that lived in Cuba back then, who ultimately fled to the U.S. and made tramendous successes of themselves would’ve done nothing but great things for the island. Instead your dad helped one of the most murderous tyrants in our history. It’s like bragging about your father having done his part in the Gaurd towers at Auschwitz! "Oh but there was nothing better, is the excuse. Give me a fucking break you hack.

Your father worked every day of his life in Cuba under Castro assisting the tyrant and his regime carry out the atrocities on innocent people like my family, and thousands of others.

You say my family sold their “country” out to hand Cuba over to the enemy? Are you listening to yourself??? I bet your father stills calls Americans, Imperialist yankees… My family sold CASTRO out to SAVE the country, Cuba, they loved, even for people like you. For some reason you confuse their desire to keep their COUNTRY free, with some sort of supposed greed, or mafia connection?

What did your father decide to do instead of fighting for his OWN freedom and that of his family??? He decided to fold like a cheap piece of cardboard. He decided having a back-bone wasn’t that important anymore, and he was willing to sacrifice his freedoms for assist the lust for power this one man has.

I have NO idea why you are proud of that.
I’m not Cuban??? You are a disgrace to the title and should be thrown through he same tortures that your father’s leader, boss, and murdering employer emposed upon so many.

Anti-Communist you say??? I hate to see what the pro-communist’s are like!
REALIZE THIS: Your father was a commie who instead of standing up for good, and what is right, he chose to shut his mouth, keep quiet and steadily march to Fidel’s tune, I think it’s called: “Poor Lost Souls”

I don’t even know what to call that. Coward yes, definitely…but it’s even more than that.

You don’t see that every day he would do his work for what, three Decades you said? Oppressing his fellow compatriots. I’m sorry, no response, or excuse, or bullshit reply is going to mask the fact that you and your father defend and support, (your dad has shown more than his share of support) in the oppression of thousands of people. I hope you can sleep well at night…

Also, that bullshit about being able to refute the statistics I posted? Go for it. Oh and if you’re going to quote me crap out of the Communist Manifesto, History Will Absolve Me, or Mein Kempf, you can save it. Return all that back to your fathers private stash… Good little pinko, just as padre Fidel tells you.

You say I use propaganda? Reminder, again - Your father worked for the biggest propaganda machine in this half century, for 30 years! It was his job for God’s sake. Shit by now, I’m sure he’s so trained it’s not even funny. Fidel had him on a leash I’m sure, all dress in RED, with oh don’t forget - a beret! Si comandante, lo hago por la revolucion! I’m sure he’ll never forget that!

You say my family is full of traitors? I don’t even have to say a thing, AGAIN, you admitted your father was in the PCC (might as well have been CCCP). Having GIVEN UP or surrendered to the communist revolution WAS selling your Cuba out. Thats what you don’t understand. You think that America is the enemy (why should I be so surprised, thats the first thing they “teach” you during the years of indoctrination) Wasn’t your father a teacher? Give me a break man. Honeslty I don’t know why I waste my time.

I have no idea why you keep saying I’m not Cuban. I’m more of Cuban than you, your father (obviously), mother, sister, and whoever else is burdened with having to live among you, combined!

You are the type of people that my family fought and killed (deservedly) in an attempt to prevent, again, people like you from stealing everything they had, throwing them in jail, or maybe even executing them. Something to be proud of guy.

You father was just as responsible for those who made sure my uncle was comfortable in his cell for 10 years (prisoner of conscious, look it up), or maybe made sure that another uncle (still there) recieves his 100 Cuban pesos for his Government retirement every month. Damn, you may think thats a nice chuck of change until you consider he must pay rent, utilities (water, electric), and then food with the rest. NONE of that is provided by the Government, “for the people.” None! (At this point, I can already hear your father chanting shit in the background, raising his hand in the air screaming at his portrait of Che: Vive la Revolucion!) He has had to endure so many years of lies upon lies, I wouldn’t consider him a very reliable, objective source for your info, just so you know.

When it comes to food, your friendly neighborhood Castroite’s just give you a ration card with your ALLOWED amount for that month, and then you go to the store to purchase (WITH YOUR MONEY!). Considering the exchange rates and the fact that almost everything has to be bought in American Dollars (meats for sure), you can buy a good sized MELON, for say, 150 Cuban pesos! You’re gonna tell me that people are supposed to live off of this? If these people didn’t have family in the U.S. to support them, many would starve. Shit, 80% of the entire country lives under the poverty level! Tell your dad: Nice work for me.

It usually would take a lot for me to say something like “You and your family are pura mierda!” But when the shoe fits…

Now I know why so many freedom fighters (and all those who have fought tyranny during history) take pride in knowing that they took down a couple commie’s crushing their homeland. I wish I would’ve had my chance to throw a couple under my belt. I feel sorry for those who bowed down before it. Balls? What, did it take him 30 years to work up the courage to resign? haha ok

You are not anywhere near my lineage, thank God!

To be 100% frank with you (coming closer to the screen, and whispering to you personally…), you are the perfect example of “Ignorance is Bliss” and if you want to continue this life blinded to the facts before you, ok, thats your choice. Just don’t do it anywhere near me, please, I get enough nausea as it is. Honeslty, as an American (leaving my entire Cuban heritage out of it) I don’t want you or liars like you to reside in my country. You have sold out Cuba, and you’ve already called the U.S. “the enemy” (your own words!). You are a traitor who belongs to live under what he believes in, Communism. I’m sure you’ll love it!

All-in-all, tu eres un hijo de puta quien sabe mas nada que hablar pura mierda, y denunciar a sus propios compadres. Que te vaya bien en el infierno amigo.

ps-Since you are a REAL Cuban, you shouldn’t need an internet translator I hope?

All I can do is laugh and pity you.

Bye Fhurer-wanna-be…