T Nation

The Real Cuba

wetdrmscap, a few questions that your post brought to mind for me. In your response you implied that, I have never seen a beach and that you and your family were skiing in…VAIL.

You also made a big point of showing off your families wealth and status “Yes we do run Miami,” snicker, snicker, snicker. You implied that being from Colorado made me ignorant and peasant like.

That brought to mind some of the stereotypes that are held of Cubans Is it true they look down their noses at the other latino cultures? That Mexicans are dirty? That Puerto Ricans are beneath them?

Do you believe that your money and status makes you better then other people? Do you feel that you will gather support for your cause by insulting people?

I can understand Cuba being important for your with your ties there, but do you think it should be the focal point of every other American?

I agree that communism and Fidel are negative entities, but that being far removed from my life and my own struggles it isn’t the focal point for me. I don’t go to bed at night cursing Fidel or Che, I have got other issues, concerns, and priorities in my life.

I see nothing wrong with your mission of spreading your viewpoint on Cuba. I just happen to be of the belief that this world is full of injustice and strife and I am not on a crusade to change that. My plate is full with my own life’s responsibilities.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Like there’s a difference.

Doogie,

Surely you know better than that? Perhaps we should eliminate all taxation and all government programs lest we chance upon some evil of socialism?

Maybe we should also do nothing during periods such as the great depression, but simply let everyone starve off. Hell, why wait, maybe we should just have homeless patrols to go kill off the poor a destitute so they stop using up our resources.

Also, lets now worry about the rights and freedoms of individuals to do as they please. No, we’d hate to let everyone think on their own and reach their own conclusions and voice them. That would be horrid.[/quote]

I just wanted to see what kind of rant you’d come back with.

Ahahahaha… rotten bastard!

I’m no fan of authoritarian douche-bags, whether they masquerade as socialist “friends of the common man” or Republican “friends of the common man.” However, I agree with the analysis linking the repression and poverty of Cuba with the economic/geographic dynamics of the region (a la Jamaica, Haiti, etc.). Hell, Castro didn’t even claim communism at the beginning of his revolution! It was Che and the other Commies idealogues in the movement who pushed for closer ties with the Soviets.

It is of critical importance to remember that Batista was hardly a paragon of virtue. His government was overrun with corruption and terror. Is Castro better? Of course not. However, it seems that wetdrmscap’s family probably profitted from the Batista regime and then had their privileges threatened by Castro’s regime. The classic authoritarian-socialist inversion of the previous regime in action! Those who were kicked around by Batista decided to kick around those who did the kicking. The answer is obviously a new government, based on different authoritarian principles (sarcasm)!

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
wetdrmscap, a few questions that your post brought to mind for me. In your response you implied that, I have never seen a beach and that you and your family were skiing in…VAIL.

You also made a big point of showing off your families wealth and status “Yes we do run Miami,” snicker, snicker, snicker. You implied that being from Colorado made me ignorant and peasant like.

That brought to mind some of the stereotypes that are held of Cubans Is it true they look down their noses at the other latino cultures? That Mexicans are dirty? That Puerto Ricans are beneath them?

Do you believe that your money and status makes you better then other people? Do you feel that you will gather support for your cause by insulting people?

I can understand Cuba being important for your with your ties there, but do you think it should be the focal point of every other American?

I agree that communism and Fidel are negative entities, but that being far removed from my life and my own struggles it isn’t the focal point for me. I don’t go to bed at night cursing Fidel or Che, I have got other issues, concerns, and priorities in my life.

I see nothing wrong with your mission of spreading your viewpoint on Cuba. I just happen to be of the belief that this world is full of injustice and strife and I am not on a crusade to change that. My plate is full with my own life’s responsibilities. [/quote]

Don’t make the mistake of thinking Miami Cubans are representative of our country. The truth is, before the revolution, Cuba was run by the mafia. After the revolution, huge numbers of criminals moved from Cuba to miami, to avoid prison/execution, or just to be able to continue their “way of life”. It’s no accident that Miami is the crime-capital of the world.

While this is certainly not true of all Cubans in Miami, I think it is more and more true as you get closer to 1959, when Batista’s goverment fell. I am not posting this to bash anyone, just to present the opposing stance on this.

Tallman555

Cane fields and beaches? You forgot the very best tobacco in the world and some damn fine rum. By the way those beaches are usually ranked world wide in the top ten.
 
 I personally visited Cuba on Nov.97 and found the people wonderful. I was never constantly harrased on the streets as in Jamacia or Mexico. I was able to ask a few people(in my broken spanish/ their broken english) what they thought about trade with the U.S. They responded that it will all happen in time. I know it helped to fund Castro but I am glad I got to see Cuba before the trade doors opened and there will be a KFC an Micky D on every other corner.  

[quote]battlelust wrote:
I’m no fan of authoritarian douche-bags, whether they masquerade as socialist “friends of the common man” or Republican “friends of the common man.” However, I agree with the analysis linking the repression and poverty of Cuba with the economic/geographic dynamics of the region (a la Jamaica, Haiti, etc.). Hell, Castro didn’t even claim communism at the beginning of his revolution! It was Che and the other Commies idealogues in the movement who pushed for closer ties with the Soviets.
[/quote]

Close, but there is a bit missing. Cuba never claimed to be “communist”, and was considered a “third world country” (that is, it was neutral in the cold war; not aligned with either side) Even with Che’s influence, Castro would not have turned to the USSR if it hadn’t been for the US and Britain backing Batista. They backed him because they were afraid Castro might be “soft on communism”, and didn’t want to take the risk. Like Ho Chi Ming, Castro was antagonized by the US, and had to turn to the USSR for support.

My grandfather was heavily involved in the revolution, and was sentenced to execution 1 month before Havana fell (he survived, but that’s a story for another day) at any rate, my father CRIED when Castro declared he was turning to the USSR. A lot of Cubans felt that way, but it was better than Batista, so they carried on.

[quote]
It is of critical importance to remember that Batista was hardly a paragon of virtue. His government was overrun with corruption and terror. Is Castro better? Of course not. However, it seems that wetdrmscap’s family probably profitted from the Batista regime and then had their privileges threatened by Castro’s regime. The classic authoritarian-socialist inversion of the previous regime in action! Those who were kicked around by Batista decided to kick around those who did the kicking. The answer is obviously a new government, based on different authoritarian principles (sarcasm)! [/quote]

EXACTLY! Excellent analysis. I somewhat disagree with Castro not being any better. Cuba does have one of the highest literacy rates in the world, and one of the most well educated people. But this is likely a result of the Soviet focus on science. Instead of pimping Cuba out to the US, Castro pimped the country to the USSR. I consider the effect to have been marginally better, although they were both bad presidents.

At any rate, great post.

wetdrmscap:

Some Hollywood liberals love Cuba huh, and you are surprised by this?

Liberals ha ha…you can’t live with em…but you can surely beat them in most elections!

Wahahha

[quote]Tallman555 wrote:
Yup Cuba sounds pretty bad. Guess what though. Haiti and Jamaica are pretty damn rough as well and they accomplished this with US and (in the case of JA) UK backed regimes. In fact, Cuba was poor-ass backwater before Castro too. Might the woes of the larger Caribbean states be part of a set of characteristics common to all these islands rather than soviet style collectivism?
[/quote]

Cuba can’t be compared to those other countries. Don’t believe me? Check out Cuba’s life expectancy (female: 79.65 years), and compare it with Haiti’s (female: 54.31 years)

[quote]
All of these islands have colonial-style economies based on a handful of individuals and compnaies owning most physical resources. For most, the only way to make a descent living in JA or Haiti or Cuba is and has been to leave and go to the US , Canada, UK, or a smaller wealthier island. With little physical resources and fleeing human capital (the educated and the enterprising), all these places are stuck with is cane fields and a couple resorts. Blame Castro if you want- but the issue is much larger than him. [/quote]

Saying Cuba lacks educated people is moronic. Cuba’s male literacy rate is (marginally) higher than the US’s rate (97.2% vs 97%). Again, compare that to Haiti’s rate of 54.8% (male). Conclusion: you obviously know nothing about the region, so don’t talk about it. Clearly, it’s nothing but beaches and sugar cane fields to YOU, but then again I bet you’ve never lived there.

Cuba has very serious problems, but they are totally different from the problems in neighbouring islands.

Aleksandr, thank you for bringing some god damn sense to this post…he went on to portray it is all Cubans everywhere were completely apposed to Fidel aside from ones that have “brainwashed” and then rants on with information that is skeptical at best…first it is well known tht Che WAS involved in the beginning, Fidel started sending him out long after…that was after appointing him to some economic role that he wasnt really suited for and therefore didnt do to good of a job, but he was never comfortable with that…and most of he land that was nationalized was taken from the US…yes the US used land in other countries, thats why Che wanted people to have a voice…is that so wron? that he disliked other countries coming in and using the land for their own gain…until not to long ago the US was in Chile and basically had control of their crops, why? can the Chileans not take care of their own land?

apparently not huh? the US has to have control just so they can have cheap resources from other peoples land…and you speak of brainwashing yet you dont take a moment to think hmmm maybe the US is using anti commi propaganda in the same way…they portray everything in as bad a picture as possible, but your clueless to that arent you? this post was riddled with ignorance and it amazes me how outright fucking foolish you are…how many so apposed to cuba actually know anything about it? other than what yourve been told by people who appose it? and to other posts, someone reffered to a “true history” being tought…WTF is that?

what is this “true history”? is it the history that YOU want it to be?
and as for the article on the opinon journal it was even more retarded than this post…quick question, how many deaths is christianity responsible for? can that number even be counted?

Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

[/quote]

I thought the same thing until I reread it and I think that he meant prior to Castro, Cuba was neutral.

My comparison between the pre-revolution Cuba and Haiti was was not certainly intended to be extrapolated to contemporary Cuba. Of course Cuba currently has a longer life expectancy than Haiti, Cuba has a fine health care system- certainly by Caribbean standards. It also has a much better education system and accordingly a better educated population than Haiti or Jamaica. This was not the case in the late 1940’s when my grandparents lived there.

The point of my comparison was rather than to disparage the island as it is now, but point out that Cuba was not all that rosy before the revolution and furthermore that comparable nations in the region did not necessary flourish under capitalism and occassionally democraticaly elected representatives.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Tallman555 wrote:
Yup Cuba sounds pretty bad. Guess what though. Haiti and Jamaica are pretty damn rough as well and they accomplished this with US and (in the case of JA) UK backed regimes. In fact, Cuba was poor-ass backwater before Castro too. Might the woes of the larger Caribbean states be part of a set of characteristics common to all these islands rather than soviet style collectivism?

Cuba can’t be compared to those other countries. Don’t believe me? Check out Cuba’s life expectancy (female: 79.65 years), and compare it with Haiti’s (female: 54.31 years)

All of these islands have colonial-style economies based on a handful of individuals and compnaies owning most physical resources. For most, the only way to make a descent living in JA or Haiti or Cuba is and has been to leave and go to the US , Canada, UK, or a smaller wealthier island. With little physical resources and fleeing human capital (the educated and the enterprising), all these places are stuck with is cane fields and a couple resorts. Blame Castro if you want- but the issue is much larger than him.

Saying Cuba lacks educated people is moronic. Cuba’s male literacy rate is (marginally) higher than the US’s rate (97.2% vs 97%). Again, compare that to Haiti’s rate of 54.8% (male). Conclusion: you obviously know nothing about the region, so don’t talk about it. Clearly, it’s nothing but beaches and sugar cane fields to YOU, but then again I bet you’ve never lived there.

Cuba has very serious problems, but they are totally different from the problems in neighbouring islands.[/quote]

[quote]wtagye wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

I thought the same thing until I reread it and I think that he meant prior to Castro, Cuba was neutral. [/quote]

I don’t know about that, as he noted prior to Castro, Battista was in charge. There were very close ties to the US, including the mob as has been pointed out. Perhaps Cuba had not signed a mutual defense treaty with the US?

It sure seems to me that they went from the US sphere of influence to the Soviet sphere without much time in neutral territory.

No question the Cuban people and the world will be better off when Castro is gone.

The Cold War must have been a scary time to be the ruler of new unstable government in the third world. Results were uncertain. Ho Chi Minh took Sino-Russion aid and won his war against the US; Castro took Russian aid and got to keep his throne; Mongolia took Soviet aid and became a puppet state essentially. Patrice Lumumba refused both Russian aid and US aid and got wacked by the CIA.

[quote]wtagye wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

I thought the same thing until I reread it and I think that he meant prior to Castro, Cuba was neutral. [/quote]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

[/quote]

Although Cuba had heavy ties with the USSR, it was not part of the Bloc. By neutral, I don’t mean Cuba wasn’t working with the USSR, I mean it wasn’t part of the Eastern bloc, and was part of the non-aligned movement.

I know, it’s confusing, and really doesn’t make much sense. But that’s how it was.

tallman, my apologies, I misunderstood your intent. Although it is important to realize, even before the revolution, Cuba was very different from the rest of the region, and all of latin america. I suspect this is because Cuba acted as the capitol of the spanish empire in the americas, but that’s just speculation.

[quote]Tallman555 wrote:
The Cold War must have been a scary time to be the ruler of new unstable government in the third world. Results were uncertain. Ho Chi Minh took Sino-Russion aid and won his war against the US; Castro took Russian aid and got to keep his throne; Mongolia took Soviet aid and became a puppet state essentially. Patrice Lumumba refused both Russian aid and US aid and got wacked by the CIA.

wtagye wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Aleksandr, Cuba was not neutral in the Cold War! Cuban Missle Crisis?

I thought the same thing until I reread it and I think that he meant prior to Castro, Cuba was neutral.

[/quote]

Don’t get me started on the CIA. Any cuban that has any dealings with the CIA is a traitor, plain and simple. Bragging about havingmet with the last man to see Che alive is NOT a way to make friends with other Cubans. I’d rather a tyrant than terrorists.

But just curious, to the original poster, have YOU ever been to Cuba? I suspect you don’t realize how out of touch you are with the Cuban people. Because a lot of people hate Castro, but everyone loves Che. Have you ever been to La Plaza de la Revolucion on October 8th?


Non-aligned movement??? haha…ok

Any Cuban that has had dealings with the CIA is a traitor??? You would have absolutely no idea what laying your life on the line for your country is like… Please, I can only clench my teeth to think that there are honorable soldiers dying out there trying to protect the freedoms of people like you. It disgusts me to see people like yourself take advantage of everything democracy has to offer yet shit on it and your government any chance you get.

You know something, I’ve got an idea, why don’t all the commie bastards living among us just get the hell out of here…Go to Eastern Europe or something, or maybe Cuba, from what I hear on this forum, you all think it and Castro are so great…have at it! I’m sure the 1 oz of rice and next to 0.0 oz. of meat will suit all you bodybuilders just fine…Please man…give me a break.

My real response is soon to follow, no time, I’m too busy making money in this glorious capitalist system we have here!

Damn! Where’s Reagan when we need him.