T Nation

The Pump versus The Burn?

I am confused over these 2 especially regarding warmup and cooldown sets for getting blood into the muscles etc. I am not sure if people are using these word interchangeably?

thanx

Not interchangeable

‘The burn’ can lead to ‘the pump’, but it’s not a very good indicator because endurance work burns, too. As a matter of fact, endurance work burns more.

A good pump will leave you with a ‘full’ feeling in the muscle, like an overstuffed sausage. There will be a measurable difference, too. My arms gain almost 3/4" with a good pump.

Thanx JayPierce for replying.

Well I can only get the “pump” after doing a ton of sets on the leg extensions and hamstring curl machines- to my maximum load. Then my thighs feel thick like you describe and they stay that way for 5-10 minutes, maybe even more.

But I can’t get this pumped feeling in any other muscles- just quads and hams-. I would like to feel it in my back.

I also don’t understand how I am supposed to be able to get that feeling as a warmup? I mean, by the time I get that feeling, I am spent. Also, since I feel my thighs pumped for 10 minutes at least, why would finishing off sets be required? Or maybe my pumped feeling is lasting too long?

I find it easy to get the burn- just volume I think.

How can I get the pumped feeling in my muscles as a warmup? All I get is the burn which stops as soon as I stop the lift. And do some muscles just not get pumped- like the lats and the traps?

thanx

also, just curious, what is making your biceps measure larger? Not blood? thanx

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:
also, just curious, what is making your biceps measure larger? Not blood? thanx[/quote]

Yes blood. It fills the area, that’s what causes that “swelled up” feeling

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:
Thanx JayPierce for replying.

Well I can only get the “pump” after doing a ton of sets on the leg extensions and hamstring curl machines- to my maximum load. Then my thighs feel thick like you describe and they stay that way for 5-10 minutes, maybe even more. [/quote]
Not sure what your actual routine looks like, but you won’t get much of a pump from strength work (less than eight reps or so). Try this for a good pump:
1)Warmup: Extensions and lying leg curls - two or three sets of 15-20 with light weight (you should get a slight burn)
2)Strength Work: Squats in the 3-5 rep range
3)Assistance Work: one quad- and one ham- dominant compound lift, in the 8-10 rep range
4)Burnout: superset A)walking lunges with B)seated leg curls. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

Avoid stairs like the plague for the next few days.

Same scheme above works for any muscle group.

You’ll feel it a little bit after your warmup, but not much.

EDITED

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:
also, just curious, what is making your biceps measure larger? Not blood? thanx[/quote]

Yes blood. It fills the area, that’s what causes that “swelled up” feeling[/quote]
Yup. Technically speaking, that’s what swelling is.

Thank you very much Jay- I get the idea! I have NOT been doing that on my back so no wonder I have not been feeling anything (except for DOMS)

What do you think of this for my back? (I am thinking of having 2 different back days- one focused on rowing and the other focused on pullups):

Row days (for the pump in the middle/lower traps and rhomboids):

1)Warmup: Standing Cable Rows - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Prone Chest Supported T-Bar Rows in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Trap 3 Raises and Kroc Rows in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Chest Supported Vertical Rows with B)Bench dips. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

Pullup days (for pump in Lats, serratus anterior, middle & lower traps):

1)Warmup: Lat pulldown - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Lat pulldown Isometric 20-40 second holds in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Assisted pullups & Straight arm trap dips in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Pullovers with B)Lat pulldowns. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

thanx!

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:
Thank you very much Jay- I get the idea! I have NOT been doing that on my back so no wonder I have not been feeling anything (except for DOMS)

What do you think of this for my back? (I am thinking of having 2 different back days- one focused on rowing and the other focused on pullups):

Row days (for the pump in the middle/lower traps and rhomboids):

1)Warmup: Standing Cable Rows - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Prone Chest Supported T-Bar Rows in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Trap 3 Raises and Kroc Rows in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Chest Supported Vertical Rows with B)Bench dips. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

Pullup days (for pump in Lats, serratus anterior, middle & lower traps):

1)Warmup: Lat pulldown - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Lat pulldown Isometric 20-40 second holds in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Assisted pullups & Straight arm trap dips in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Pullovers with B)Lat pulldowns. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

thanx![/quote]
Better to combine and work twice a week. Try this:

Warmup: Single arm lat pull http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/768 and Pendlay row
Heavy: T-bar Rows
Assistance: Chest-supported High Rows* and One-arm DB Rows
Burnout: Lat pulls and Shrugs

*Performed like a Pendlay Row, letting the shoulders come forward at the end and retracting
forcefully to start each rep

Lat pulls are to the chest and focusing on the squeeze. Try to pull the bar into your chest by pulling your elbows back hard.

See how it works both planes with ample volume? The Heavy lift involves as much muscle mass as possible, moving as much weight as possible. The assistance lift gives some variation and volume, and the burnout provides maximum pump.

In every session, the Burnout must be focused. You are not just going through the motions for the sake of getting reps in. It’s a deliberate, focused contraction and a hard squeeze. Every rep!

For the second back session of the week, you can change the lifts as long as you stick with the concepts of the program.

On the lat pulls (in this particular sequence), you may notice that on some reps you can feel the lats themselves pulling from your armpits down to the bottom of your spine. If you can zone in on that feeling, it will help you immensely in the long run. Feeling the lats pull is something that’s hard for most lifters to ‘get’, and I put this sequence together just for that (while not sacrificing anything else in the workout).

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
On the lat pulls (in this particular sequence), you may notice that on some reps you can feel the lats themselves pulling from your armpits down to the bottom of your spine. If you can zone in on that feeling, it will help you immensely in the long run. Feeling the lats pull is something that’s hard for most lifters to ‘get’, and I put this sequence together just for that (while not sacrificing anything else in the workout).[/quote]

I find I can focus on my lats (and trap- depending) at the lower loads. Isometrically I feel like I have total control over where I feel it. It is just when the loads get really high, it’s hard to say what is going on really- just focusing more on doing it. The more I retract my scaps though, the more I feel it in the lower traps but if I let up on the retraction a bit (retract but not all the way, then the lats take more of it) I also try very hard not to use my arms but they are still the weakest link in this exercise for me.

thank you!

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:
Thank you very much Jay- I get the idea! I have NOT been doing that on my back so no wonder I have not been feeling anything (except for DOMS)

What do you think of this for my back? (I am thinking of having 2 different back days- one focused on rowing and the other focused on pullups):

Row days (for the pump in the middle/lower traps and rhomboids):

1)Warmup: Standing Cable Rows - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Prone Chest Supported T-Bar Rows in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Trap 3 Raises and Kroc Rows in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Chest Supported Vertical Rows with B)Bench dips. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

Pullup days (for pump in Lats, serratus anterior, middle & lower traps):

1)Warmup: Lat pulldown - 2-3 sets of 15-20 with 50% 1RM (to get a slight burn)(rest between sets=??)
2)Strength Work: Lat pulldown Isometric 20-40 second holds in the 3-5 rep range (5 sets?)
3)Assistance Work: Assisted pullups & Straight arm trap dips in the 8-10 rep range (3 sets?)
4)Burnout: superset A)Pullovers with B)Lat pulldowns. Pick weights that you can barely eek out for 15 reps on the first set. 20 sec rest between each set (A, rest, B, rest, repeat). Go for 5 sets of each if you can, but you can build up to it if you need to. As many reps as you can grind out on each set.

thanx![/quote]
Better to combine and work twice a week. Try this:

Warmup: Single arm lat pull http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/768 and Pendlay row
Heavy: T-bar Rows
Assistance: Chest-supported High Rows* and One-arm DB Rows
Burnout: Lat pulls and Shrugs

*Performed like a Pendlay Row, letting the shoulders come forward at the end and retracting
forcefully to start each rep

Lat pulls are to the chest and focusing on the squeeze. Try to pull the bar into your chest by pulling your elbows back hard.

See how it works both planes with ample volume? The Heavy lift involves as much muscle mass as possible, moving as much weight as possible. The assistance lift gives some variation and volume, and the burnout provides maximum pump.

In every session, the Burnout must be focused. You are not just going through the motions for the sake of getting reps in. It’s a deliberate, focused contraction and a hard squeeze. Every rep!

For the second back session of the week, you can change the lifts as long as you stick with the concepts of the program.[/quote]

Thank you!!

Well yes, I had the crazy idea of working the 2 planes on separate days but your plan seems really good, thank you. I don’t want to work my upper traps though- I feel they worked enough doing overhead presses but I like your general plan.

One thing you said was do the pulldowns to my CHEST? I am following the Tnation video- that is how far down I go. http://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/lat-pulldown

If I can just ask a question that has been bothering me- you say:

This has been bothering me. I have read that we need to do the reps through the full range of motion and on rows that implies that the scapula should be protracted and the shoulders rounded at the bottom. Is that what you are saying? I have really been avoiding doing this though because I really want to train a permanent shortening of my rhomboids etc- like, I don’t want to exercise in the fully stretched position because I am trying to eliminate that position from my body altogether. So on rows, I do let my scaps protract a bit but not fully . I am confused over that. To use the hamstrings and straight leg deadlifts as an analogy- they are being worked/loaded in a fully stretched position but I want long hamstrings so I do them. I think I read somewhere here that the best way to stretch a muscle is to work it in the stretched postion? So I just feel like that is the last thing I want to do on rows?

I am actually looking forward to doing this. Lowering the loads for this will make all the difference. I do this isometrically sometimes just sitting around and it feels great.

Thnak you VERY much!

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:

Well yes, I had the crazy idea of working the 2 planes on separate days but your plan seems really good, thank you. I don’t want to work my upper traps though- I feel they worked enough doing overhead presses but I like your general plan.[/quote]

Taylor it to your goals. It’s more of a method than a set-in-stone plan.

I go wider than that, so my hands are probably at the same height, but the bar is pressed into my upper chest. I can feel my lats better that way. If you can feel your lats pulling already, do it how you do it.

[quote][quote]
*Performed like a Pendlay Row, letting the shoulders come forward at the end and retracting
forcefully to start each rep
[/quote]

This has been bothering me. I have read that we need to do the reps through the full range of motion and on rows that implies that the scapula should be protracted and the shoulders rounded at the bottom. Is that what you are saying? [/quote]
Yes.

It’s not like stretching to increase flexibility. For posture, it has the opposite effect of what you’re thinking. When you lift, a stretched muscle gets activated more, making that muscle stronger in the long run. A muscle exerts a pull whether it’s tensed or relaxed, and logically, the bigger and stronger a muscle is, the greater the pull.

As long as you don’t have any muscles that are too short, you don’t alter your posture through flexibility, you alter it through strength. If your pec minor are too short, you need to stretch them and strengthen the back.

You have to relax a muscle to allow it to stretch enough to improve flexibility. Relaxing under a load is a recipe for disaster. Feeling a light stretch while lifting is completely different.

[quote][quote]
In every session, the Burnout must be focused. You are not just going through the motions for the sake of getting reps in. It’s a deliberate, focused contraction and a hard squeeze. Every rep!
[/quote]

I am actually looking forward to doing this. Lowering the loads for this will make all the difference. I do this isometrically sometimes just sitting around and it feels great.

Thnak you VERY much![/quote]
Glad to help

OK Thank you Jay- I am actually going to start doing the lat pulldowns down to the chest like you said- it makes sense they would work the lats more, though I think I will have to reduce the weight. I am also going to do the single arm lat pulldowns you posted but maybe modify them so that I am not bending my trunk as much as the video shows.

Just back to the stretching issues, if you don’t mind- here is where I read it:

and this is what is says:

This is what I am talking about. I engage my hamstrings when doing straight leg deadlifts for sure- I can feel them really work. But I also know this exercise is lengthening them. It’s possible to get both strength and length at the same time I think. I know they are also getting stronger. WRT my hamstrings anyway, I feel what this guy is saying is correct. I am also experimenting with lunges to eccentrically stretch my quads under load - I am not sure if it is working yet, but I think it is.

So- I am just afraid of the same thing happening to my rhomboids and mid traps at the bottom of a row. & yes, I stretch my pec minor etc- I have read all the posture articles here- “Neanderthol No More”, “Deconstructing Computer Guy” etc but they do not address my concern over this.

Thank you again. I am on a deload week right now but will be applying the pump method as soon as I get back to it.

If you have any further information regarding doing the rows to a stretched position I would be happy (and grateful) to hear it!

I will counter that guys info with a quote from his own article

Do you really believe that there are some people in the world that are born not being able to squat to parallel? Well, OK, yes that’s possible, but just how many of these people would you expect to meet at the gym?

Found the guy’s website, too. Eh. A little dubious.

All I will say is that results trump scientific data every time. You don’t have to understand how it works at the molecular level to know that it works. If I don’t stretch before front squats, my left knee and lower back hurt. If I stretch, they don’t. I don’t care how many letters this guy has after his name or how many studies he quotes, I’m damn well going to stretch before I squat.

Ask a flexible person how they got flexible. What do you think they are going to tell you?

Strengthening your back (rhomboids and traps) and stretching your pecs (major and minor) will correct protracted shoulders. Worked for me, and it has worked for countless others.

Where I got my info when I was fixing my own shoulders: http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Posture.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

ok Thank you!

Don’t mention it.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Assistance: Chest-supported High Rows* and One-arm DB Rows
Burnout: Lat pulls and Shrugs

*Performed like a Pendlay Row, letting the shoulders come forward at the end and retracting
forcefully to start each rep
[/quote]

HI Jay, I wanted to thank you VERY much for this. I have had 2 back workouts since. Your tips have really really helped me. I can in fact get the pulldown bar to my chest and the Chest-Supported High Rows (Iso Lateral Machine) are excellent- my favorite machine now.I am also doing the one arm lat pulldowns and feel the lower lats.

I was just hoping to clarify something about

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
…Relaxing under a load is a recipe for disaster. Feeling a light stretch while lifting is completely different.
[/quote]

Especially on the chest supported high rows but also all the other rows, I am doing what you said (I think) and I realize that I haven’t stretched like this in months. But I am also confused a bit on the difference between relaxing and stretching. I find doing it this way I am tending to pause a bit at the bottom position and just wondering if you could say a couple of words on that subject. I don’t think I am relaxing but seems to be a bit of a fine line?

thank you!

[quote]Reconstruction wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

Assistance: Chest-supported High Rows* and One-arm DB Rows
Burnout: Lat pulls and Shrugs

*Performed like a Pendlay Row, letting the shoulders come forward at the end and retracting
forcefully to start each rep
[/quote]

HI Jay, I wanted to thank you VERY much for this. I have had 2 back workouts since. Your tips have really really helped me. I can in fact get the pulldown bar to my chest and the Chest-Supported High Rows (Iso Lateral Machine) are excellent- my favorite machine now.I am also doing the one arm lat pulldowns and feel the lower lats.[/quote]

Awesome. Glad I could help.

[quote]I was just hoping to clarify something about

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
…Relaxing under a load is a recipe for disaster. Feeling a light stretch while lifting is completely different.
[/quote]

Especially on the chest supported high rows but also all the other rows, I am doing what you said (I think) and I realize that I haven’t stretched like this in months. But I am also confused a bit on the difference between relaxing and stretching. I find doing it this way I am tending to pause a bit at the bottom position and just wondering if you could say a couple of words on that subject. I don’t think I am relaxing but seems to be a bit of a fine line?

thank you![/quote]
That little half-second pause to feel the stretch is exactly what you want. You’re doing it right.