The Problem With the Problem of Evil

I’ll mostly be following along here, but I enjoy these kinds of discussions, so to help spur the conversation…

I disagree. Humans aren’t born with Christ in their life. They still have to ask for forgiveness, repent, and ask Jesus for salvation. So even if someone was “predestined” to be one of the elect, there still has to be a literal ‘coming to Jesus’ moment in their lives for them to be saved. Maybe someone like Trib approaching the subject with them and bringing to light a new perspective on things is what does it. In that sense, it is not at all a waste of time for him to be evangelizing.

disclaimer I claim no faith currently (agnostic).

But that would negate the very concept of predestination and shifts Grace to something that is conditional, meaning that a person must make a choice (within the context of free will) to earn the opportunity to be saved. But once it becomes conditional, it therefore ceases to be predestined - those are mutually exclusive.

[quote=“anon71262119, post:40, topic:230512, full:true”] We could not know light without darkness.
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If I am interpreting Trib’s musings correctly, I think this is more to his point.

I hope he corrects me if I am wrong, but I think he has been saying we have been putting the cart before the horse for a long time now.

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I don’t see those as mutually exclusive. The person in question is “predestined” for salvation simply because God knew it to be so from the beginning. Someone who never had their “coming to Jesus” moment, could never truly be part of the elect.

I may be operating with a slightly different definition of “predestination” than the one in official use under Calvinist doctrine, but that is the way I see it.

I won’t be able to help you guys out with the woeful misconceptions being put forth here until a bit later at the earliest. I’m a stickler this way. I don’t want people to think I’m ignoring them though it is probably unnecessary to say stuff like this.

If predestination doesn’t mean you’re in, but instead means you’re potentially in, subject to you satisfying some conditions, it’s not predestination by basic definition of that word.

The Calvinist construct falls apart. Choices and deeds don’t matter, except they do.

Hahaha. I would, but Tiribulus is an old poster on this subforum…they’re not the same person this time

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I believe it. I’d point out that you’re attempting to define this relationship yourself in your previous posts, so I think it best we left this conversation off. You seem to believe that all those besides Calvinists are fundamentally non-Biblical (eg. Armenians), while I don’t consider them apostates.

I think this is wrong, so I’m confident you and I will never see eye to eye on the topic.

Here is “Calvinist” doctrine (though Calvin would have hated that term) codified by 120 scholars over a period of 4 years 360 years ago at Westminster. Simply meaning that this is not weird extremist stuff unique to myself outta the blue. It only sounds extreme because of how far the spiritually crippled and castrated church on this continent has fallen over the last several decades.

CHAPTER II. Of God, and of the Holy Trinity.

I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

CHAPTER III. Of God's Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto; and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

That is an exceptionally accurate portrayal of the biblical truth.

I’d point out that I am defining this relationship from the scriptures. I really don’t want to go right back to the wrong foot right away again, but your exegetical/expositional skills and commitment to biblical authority have been less than entirely impressive in the past.

As I’ve always said. Believe whatever you want, but if nobody ever heard of it in the whole of Judaeo-Christian history then it’s not Christianity. It’s postmodern feel goodism with a bit of biblical terminology sprinkled over it.

Thanks for that btw. Us old timers will recognize one another :slight_smile:

No jab to anybody. I mean that sincerely. Almost everything being asked is in the OP.

Neither does anything in all His creation escape His flawlessly wise power and providence. He has not only created all things from nothing, (Genesis 1, Hebrews 11:3) but He also sustains their existence every second. (Hebrews 1:3) All of history, to the minutest sub-atomic detail, past, present and future, is known to and owned by Him. Not because He has discovered it by observation, but because He has ordained it by immutable sovereign decree (Proverbs 16:33 Ephesians 1:11 Isaiah 10, among endless other examples).

Further, The risen exalted Christ is not wringing His hands hoping that people will believe in Him. He IS saving His people from their sins like the angel told Mary’s betrothed He was coming to do. (Matthew 1:21)

They are HIS, Given to Him by the Father before ever He said, “let there be light.” He bought them with His blood and brought them with Him outta that tomb. The Holy Spirit is here to get them now. They are born dead and He WILL raise them all in Himself and not miss one.

Like I say. Only God knows who they are. He gives me the exquisite privilege and honor of being used in His service to preach that truth. I am successful simply by obeying Him and doing so. Even if NObody listens. That’s not up to me. Like it says in the confession. He has foreordained all the means as well as all the ends and yet we are free and accountable. By created definition I am not capable of understanding how that works and honestly have no interest anymore in trying.

I love Him for saving me and do what he says, not out of fear of hell, but out of humble gratitude. Albeit in woeful imperfection while still in this body of death.

Oops, missed this, sorry. No, they are not even accidentally similar beyond a VERY vaguely shared belief in predestination, but Islam’s fatalism is not Christianity’s divine determinism. I promise.

Other than that, they are eternities apart on every level. I KNOW what I am talking about sir.

This isn’t argument - it’s cut and paste.

I didn’t say it was argument. It is declaration. People are asking what is meant by some of the things I’ve said. I don’t fancy myself wiser and more biblically faithful than the vast army of great saints who have gone before me and upon whose shoulders I stand. Whose shoulders do you stand on Thunderbolt?

Pick something here you REALLY hate. Tell my why it is wrong according to the ancient Christian scriptures, the bible, and we’ll talk.

Smug, overweening Christians who forget the most basic rule of Christianity - there is a God, and they are not Him.

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Christianity is not the acquiescence to a sufficiently persuasive package of propositions. It is full pardon for capital crimes from the King and Judge Himself followed by the supernatural resurrection from death in the first man Adam to new and everlasting life in Jesus Christ.

There are two and only two kinds of people on this earth. Those still dead in Adam (of every nation, kindred tribe and tongue) and those now alive in Christ (of every nation, kindred tribe and tongue). You can tell which are which by what they say and how they live. A truly regenerate believer in and disciple of Christ loves what God loves and hates what God hates. Two sides of the same coin. The standard for this is the scriptures.

That being the case I doubt if 20% of those claiming Christ in what’s left of western Christendom, especially in America, have any idea what that even means. This is called “apostasy.” A falling away from looooong held biblical truths in favor of the self exalting delusions of sinful man. The scriptures tell me to expect that. They also tell me to expect everything I’m going to get in this thread, especially from those claiming to be Christians themselves.

Watch.

These guys are not going to touch those scriptures with me. Because they really don’t care what they say. They have there own thang with a fake phony hippified, tie dyed “Jesus” created in their own image.

Men like me were simply average citizens at the time of the revolution. I only appear so eye rollingly weird and extreme, like I say, because of how far this sick, debauched bloodthirsty society has fallen and the visible church right along with it.

False converts follow the world. True ones stand on God’s word no matter who or what it costs them

See what I mean?

I have a docs appointment, but in the meantime, where do we find out about your God Thunderbolt? By what authority do you speak?

So since every tribe and culture has/had different names for a creator over the course of history, are they all different roads to the same end? Or is there a chosen people since only a select group have ever heard the words “Jesus Christ” and have been given the opportunity to invite him into their lives?

That’s an excellent question, but it will have to wait til later. Here is a tip. Aragorn’s answer is not it.

Your posts drip with condescension, judgment, arrogance, intolerance and scorn. You cut-and-paste massive walls of obscure Reformation-era doctrinal writings, then mock discussants who decline to wade through them. In short, yours is the most un-Christian-‘Christian’ post I’ve seen in a long time. You’d better hope you’re a member of the Elect, because otherwise, you’re going to have some serious 'splaining to do.

As for me, I’ll stick with my ‘fake phony hippified, tie dyed “Jesus”’ and His ‘postmodern feel goodism with a bit of biblical terminology sprinkled over it.’

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