The Pivot Point...

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

Agree with TB.

I think that DISCUSSION and DEBATE is the true value of “PWI”.

Prime examples? TB and PUSH can get into some HEATED Constitutional discussions…even to the point of calling each other names. But I have learned more from their Constitutional arguments than with the “Constitution” Class I took in College.

PUSH also helped me solidify my position on the 2nd Amendment and my views on Gun Control. While those views may (or may not) be EXACTLY the same as PUSH…I certainly clearly know what my position is now because of study; listening; and to the debates on “PWI”.

Mufasa

22

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Personalities aside, do you think this a fair assessment? Please share.[/quote]

No. This forum did itself a great service by calling out and cleaning out the moonbats and conspiracists years ago. The return of Jay Pierce - a puzzlewit and first rate clown who has attempted to claim that the tragedy at Sandy Hook is a cooked-up conspiracy by the government to take away guns and that no chidlren were killed - isn’t anything to be proud of, and Smh23 has been more patient with him than I ever would be.

Fact is, intellectual integrity at some point requires rational people to stand up say “enough” to bad ideas and stupidity. No, “open-minded discussion” doesn’t mean privileging all ideas as “equal” and “worthy of respect”, nor does it require passivity in being frank with someone who is espousing plainly idiotic ideas. This is, truly, a “marketplace” for ideas, and some views have value, and some are junk. Saying so is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As for Smh23, we don’t agree on everything (nor should we), but he is a first-rate poster with great insight, and he knows how to actually debate. We need more Smh23’s, and fewer Jay Pierce’s around here, period.[/quote]

You have complemented Smh23 no more than I have in this very thread, and yet a “moonbat” is able to dissect his own text and other postings of proof and tie him into knots. Ever notice how, when someone defends their argument in a well constructed post, smh will often counter with something along the lines of “you don’t understand what I mean or meant.”

He also uses one of your famous go to moves, that being “he” will claim that another said a particular thing and then go on to attack it, as I claimed in another thread, to attack it with the ferocity of a fur trader attacking a baby Harp seal.

In the end, it may be that I am just a little weary of the intellectual cyber bully bullshit that a handful love to employ around here, you included. I have watched Push hand you your ass more than once, not that you would ever admit it. It is much easier to call hun some sort of “northwest, low brow, militia something or another” and try to discredit him that way.

Take Wikipedia and Google away from Smh and you tie his hands becasue he is a 21 year old kid with no real life experience, yet he jumps waist deep into just about every post on the board with his deep insight.

I jack with this Legionary kid the same way because if you block his access to CFR.org he doesn’t have an original thought to his name. Nada, zilch.

Am I guilty of these same sins. Being human, I am sure there are examples. But there is aslo a reason that in 13 years I have barely posted over 1000 times. I am not an expert in all things and and not in love with my own print.

23

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Personalities aside, do you think this a fair assessment? Please share.[/quote]

No. This forum did itself a great service by calling out and cleaning out the moonbats and conspiracists years ago. The return of Jay Pierce - a puzzlewit and first rate clown who has attempted to claim that the tragedy at Sandy Hook is a cooked-up conspiracy by the government to take away guns and that no chidlren were killed - isn’t anything to be proud of, and Smh23 has been more patient with him than I ever would be.

Fact is, intellectual integrity at some point requires rational people to stand up say “enough” to bad ideas and stupidity. No, “open-minded discussion” doesn’t mean privileging all ideas as “equal” and “worthy of respect”, nor does it require passivity in being frank with someone who is espousing plainly idiotic ideas. This is, truly, a “marketplace” for ideas, and some views have value, and some are junk. Saying so is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As for Smh23, we don’t agree on everything (nor should we), but he is a first-rate poster with great insight, and he knows how to actually debate. We need more Smh23’s, and fewer Jay Pierce’s around here, period.[/quote]

You have complemented Smh23 no more than I have in this very thread, and yet a “moonbat” is able to dissect his own text and other postings of proof and tie him into knots. Ever notice how, when someone defends their argument in a well constructed post, smh will often counter with something along the lines of “you don’t understand what I mean or meant.”

He also uses one of your famous go to moves, that being “he” will claim that another said a particular thing and then go on to attack it, as I claimed in another thread, to attack it with the ferocity of a fur trader attacking a baby Harp seal.

In the end, it may be that I am just a little weary of the intellectual cyber bully bullshit that a handful love to employ around here, you included. I have watched Push hand you your ass more than once, not that you would ever admit it. It is much easier to call hun some sort of “northwest, low brow, militia something or another” and try to discredit him that way.

Take Wikipedia and Google away from Smh and you tie his hands becasue he is a 21 year old kid with no real life experience, yet he jumps waist deep into just about every post on the board with his deep insight.

I jack with this Legionary kid the same way because if you block his access to CFR.org he doesn’t have an original thought to his name. Nada, zilch.

Am I guilty of these same sins. Being human, I am sure there are examples. But there is aslo a reason that in 13 years I have barely posted over 1000 times. I am not an expert in all things and and not in love with my own print. [/quote]

Most excellent post in every way.

We need more intellectually honest and humble posters like JEATON.

Funny how liberalism is a mental disorder and nothing to be proud of and yet that kind of lunacy is accepted as “normal” to talk about.

24

[quote]JEATON wrote:

You have complemented Smh23 no more than I have in this very thread, and yet a “moonbat” is able to dissect his own text and other postings of proof and tie him into knots. Ever notice how, when someone defends their argument in a well constructed post, smh will often counter with something along the lines of “you don’t understand what I mean or meant.”

He also uses one of your famous go to moves, that being “he” will claim that another said a particular thing and then go on to attack it, as I claimed in another thread, to attack it with the ferocity of a fur trader attacking a baby Harp seal. [/quote]

Well, here is the real crux of the matter - you want this thread to be some kind of missive about how you don’t like something about Smh23.

Why not just say so next time outright?

As for Jay Pierce, he hasn’t “tied anyone in knots”, lease of all Smh23.

And I have no idea what “go to” move you are referring to - if you mean pointing out people’s inconsistent statements, then guilty as charged.

And here it is again - the only function this thread serves is for your to cheerlead those with whom you have political sympathies with (no matter how dim their bulb) and say “take that!” to people with whom you don’t agree with.

As for me and Push, this thread (persumably) is not about me or him, but in any event, no, he hasn’t “handed me my ass” - and for you to try and attack me by suggesting that my arguments against Push amount to little more than ad hominems is painfully stupid, especially if you’ve read any of my posts in those exchanges.

Yet here you are, (presumably) much older than Smh23, and yet your posts are banal, half-informed, more reliant on emotion far more than reason, and generally uninteresting. Why isn’t your vastly superior “life experience” generating better posts from you, then?

If you disagree with something Smh23 says, then refute it. I do, and he does so for me. That is how it works.

How about we simply request the mods rename this thread to “JEaton’s Tantrum and Two Minute Hate On Posters He Doesn’t Share Political Views With”…?

This isn’t a useful exercise at all. You just want to bitch about Smh23, and everyone else, for the sake of bitching.

25

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Take Wikipedia and Google away from Smh and you tie his hands becasue he is a 21 year old kid with no real life experience
[/quote]

Three points that you cannot dispute:

  1. No one, including me, knows how often I use Google relative to other posters on this forum. Which means that you have not the slightest idea about how often I use Google relative to other posters on this forum.

  2. I am not 21.

  3. You know nothing about my “life experience.”

…Which makes this sentence of yours which I’ve quoted astoundingly dense with things that are not true.

26

I accually happen to like smh23, and Jay… Even though I don’t agree with everything they say, they make me think.

I do get sort of jealous/angry about how much better smh23’s vocab is than mine, plus he can spell too…

27

^ Thank you sir. I would rather be a shitty speller and be really good with numbers though, which I most certainly am not.

28

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Personalities aside, do you think this a fair assessment? Please share.[/quote]

No. This forum did itself a great service by calling out and cleaning out the moonbats and conspiracists years ago. The return of Jay Pierce - a puzzlewit and first rate clown who has attempted to claim that the tragedy at Sandy Hook is a cooked-up conspiracy by the government to take away guns and that no chidlren were killed - isn’t anything to be proud of, and Smh23 has been more patient with him than I ever would be.

Fact is, intellectual integrity at some point requires rational people to stand up say “enough” to bad ideas and stupidity. No, “open-minded discussion” doesn’t mean privileging all ideas as “equal” and “worthy of respect”, nor does it require passivity in being frank with someone who is espousing plainly idiotic ideas. This is, truly, a “marketplace” for ideas, and some views have value, and some are junk. Saying so is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As for Smh23, we don’t agree on everything (nor should we), but he is a first-rate poster with great insight, and he knows how to actually debate. We need more Smh23’s, and fewer Jay Pierce’s around here, period.[/quote]

You have complemented Smh23 no more than I have in this very thread, and yet a “moonbat” is able to dissect his own text and other postings of proof and tie him into knots. Ever notice how, when someone defends their argument in a well constructed post, smh will often counter with something along the lines of “you don’t understand what I mean or meant.”

He also uses one of your famous go to moves, that being “he” will claim that another said a particular thing and then go on to attack it, as I claimed in another thread, to attack it with the ferocity of a fur trader attacking a baby Harp seal.

In the end, it may be that I am just a little weary of the intellectual cyber bully bullshit that a handful love to employ around here, you included. I have watched Push hand you your ass more than once, not that you would ever admit it. It is much easier to call hun some sort of “northwest, low brow, militia something or another” and try to discredit him that way.

Take Wikipedia and Google away from Smh and you tie his hands becasue he is a 21 year old kid with no real life experience, yet he jumps waist deep into just about every post on the board with his deep insight.

I jack with this Legionary kid the same way because if you block his access to CFR.org he doesn’t have an original thought to his name. Nada, zilch.

Am I guilty of these same sins. Being human, I am sure there are examples. But there is aslo a reason that in 13 years I have barely posted over 1000 times. I am not an expert in all things and and not in love with my own print. [/quote]

Most excellent post in every way.

We need more intellectually honest and humble posters like JEATON.

Funny how liberalism is a mental disorder and nothing to be proud of and yet that kind of lunacy is accepted as “normal” to talk about.

[/quote]

Thank you for your kind words.

And I think I have smoked out all the major players. TB, Smh, Legionary, Mufasa . Notice how they have to spend time telling everyone how conservative they are. Why do you think that is?

I never have to proclaim my conservative nature. I am my conservative nature and it comes through in everything I do. Push and many others as well.

When the four amigos above spend time informing of their conservative creds, I am reminded of the scene from Princess Bride.

“Inconceivable!” “Sir, this word you are using. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

There are a few bright spots left, but they seem fewer every year. Countingbeans is a joy to read, mostly because I sense that most of what he posts has had real thought put into it. Push as well. Always look forward to Chewbaca and DR Sceptix. jjdude on the rare occasions when he post. I do not always agree with these men, nor them me, but I know what they are and where they are coming from. No masks.

29

You’ve claimed your Conservatism about 3 times in this thread…so what are you talking about, Jeaton?

And in reality, you “smoked YOURSELF out”…even before you had completed your original post.

I’m out.

Mufasa

30

[quote]Karado wrote:
I think you put WAYYYYYY too much importance on the relationships in this forum JEATON
and you really need to get a life and keep selling those fuckin’ Cars.
I’m a helluva salesman myself, so I know what that “world” is like.
I’ve sold the high commission stuff like Siding, Insurance, and yes, even
Cars.
Sales people tend to be fuckin’ sociopaths anyway and we tend to move around from
job to job a lot lol…Capitalism NEEDS us crazy people! Being Bi-Lingual gave me
an edge in that profession too.
Relax JEATON, concern yourself with yourself, conserve your energy…All is well. [/quote]

My take is I have been self employed the majority of my life , I did not have a sales force , I was it . If you believe in what you sell is the best value (bar none)then it is easy to sell

31

[quote]JEATON wrote:

And I think I have smoked out all the major players. TB, Smh, Legionary, Mufasa . Notice how they have to spend time telling everyone how conservative they are. Why do you think that is?

I never have to proclaim my conservative nature. I am my conservative nature and it comes through in everything I do. Push and many others as well.

When the four amigos above spend time informing of their conservative creds, I am reminded of the scene from Princess Bride.[/quote]

Who cares? Why is any of this relevant?

32

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

And I think I have smoked out all the major players. TB, Smh, Legionary, Mufasa . Notice how they have to spend time telling everyone how conservative they are. Why do you think that is?

I never have to proclaim my conservative nature. I am my conservative nature and it comes through in everything I do. Push and many others as well.

When the four amigos above spend time informing of their conservative creds, I am reminded of the scene from Princess Bride.[/quote]

Who cares? Why is any of this relevant? [/quote]

Exactly–it isn’t. The gist of this is: “there is a group of people who I believe tend left of me (on a fucking political discussion forum…the nerve!); they have for themselves various labels–moderate, centrist, or no label at all–but I would like to label them differently.”

If I were forced to quote the subtext, it would probably look something like this: “There are people on this board who have more success in debate than I do, despite the fact that they do not toe the “correct” party’s line on every issue. I resent this. I’m going to complain.”

JEATON keeps patting himself on the back for consistently falling on one end of the political spectrum. What he fails to understand is that nobody gives a damn, and he’s doing nothing but making himself look like a fool–not that that is a particularly difficult task to accomplish.

This entire thread was born out of some kind of strange resentment toward me, despite the fact that I’ve very rarely engaged him directly. That he thinks he can flail around like a fool with attacks on my “personal experience” (which, at the risk of sounding petty, I would wager to be by many measures far deeper and richer than his own, despite the fact that he is presumably much older than I) says nothing about me and everything about him.

33

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

And I think I have smoked out all the major players. TB, Smh, Legionary, Mufasa . Notice how they have to spend time telling everyone how conservative they are. Why do you think that is?

I never have to proclaim my conservative nature. I am my conservative nature and it comes through in everything I do. Push and many others as well.

When the four amigos above spend time informing of their conservative creds, I am reminded of the scene from Princess Bride.[/quote]

Who cares? Why is any of this relevant? [/quote]

Exactly–it isn’t. The gist of this is: “there is a group of people who I believe tend left of me (on a fucking political discussion forum…the nerve!); they have for themselves various labels–moderate, centrist, or no label at all–but I would like to label them differently.”

If I were forced to quote the subtext, it would probably look something like this: “There are people on this board who have more success in debate than I do, despite the fact that they do not toe the “correct” party’s line on every issue. I resent this. I’m going to complain.”

JEATON keeps patting himself on the back for consistently falling on one end of the political spectrum. What he fails to understand is that nobody gives a damn, and he’s doing nothing but making himself look like a fool–not that that is a particularly difficult task to accomplish.

This entire thread was born out of some kind of strange resentment toward me, despite the fact that I’ve very rarely engaged him directly. That he thinks he can flail around like a fool with attacks on my “personal experience” (which, at the risk of sounding petty, I would wager to be by many measures far deeper and richer than his own, despite the fact that he is presumably much older than I) says nothing about me and everything about him.[/quote]

You factor yourself too relevant in my world. Honestly, it has far less to do with you, or TB for that matter, than a trend you seem to represent. I can’t help but to think of a statement that Alfa made about you “polishing your balls.” Maybe debate is the correct term, because it is as if you are (and TB more so) trying to win something. I like to think that more often than not I am trying to learn something, but I am sure I get caught up in the drama as well.

Let me give an example. One of the things I really like about most of Orion’s posts are how clean and concise they are. He has an uncanny ability to lay a topic wide open and get to the heart of it. I may not agree with him but I never come away feeling as though he is using misdirection or semantics to score a point. There is a lean economy to his logic.

Often with you and TB it never seems straight up, at least to me. A poster speaks generally and you target with specificity or vice versa. Or as when TB will take one sentence out of a paragraph or paragraphs and act as though non of the other lines exist. I am probably butchering it but you never seem to want to meet someone where they are.

You think I have some strange resentment to you and I am sure I have given you reason to. In truth you just frustrate me. I see you as a bright kid with great writing skills who is dangerously close of going down the rode of the sleazy left wing media.

Either way, I will have to bow out of our tussle at the point. My wife’s mother has been in the hospital for several months and the doctors notified us a few hours ago that they do not expect her to last through the week. I put the wife on a plane and will follow with the kids. I mention it only for the perspective it might bring to our arguing. In the end, it is not that important.

34

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Let me give an example. One of the things I really like about most of Orion’s posts are how clean and concise they are. He has an uncanny ability to lay a topic wide open and get to the heart of it. I may not agree with him but I never come away feeling as though he is using misdirection or semantics to score a point. There is a lean economy to his logic.
[/quote]

Thank you.

That I really appreciate, because I would consider anything else to waste anybodies, and, even worse, my time.

35

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Either way, I will have to bow out of our tussle at the point. My wife’s mother has been in the hospital for several months and the doctors notified us a few hours ago that they do not expect her to last through the week. I put the wife on a plane and will follow with the kids. I mention it only for the perspective it might bring to our arguing. In the end, it is not that important. [/quote]

While I disagree with the rest of it, this is true. And best of luck with it all.

36

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Either way, I will have to bow out of our tussle at the point. My wife’s mother has been in the hospital for several months and the doctors notified us a few hours ago that they do not expect her to last through the week. I put the wife on a plane and will follow with the kids. I mention it only for the perspective it might bring to our arguing. In the end, it is not that important. [/quote]

And, of course, fuck.

37

[quote]JEATON wrote:

And I think I have smoked out all the major players. TB, Smh, Legionary, Mufasa . Notice how they have to spend time telling everyone how conservative they are. Why do you think that is? [/quote]

Because it works.
It allows one to become an intellectual Titan.
Once that illusion is established no one will question it: the media does this very effectively here.
“We are only journalists - we are unbiased”.
That gives more weight to the judgment they bring upon others. There is much more credibility typically given to judgments or arguments coming from open minds engaged in actual thought than there is to judgments coming from biased, Party-line autobots.

When actually having a mind that weighs questions individually not beholden to serving a Party line, there’s no need to keep telling people that really you are not an ideologue to the position you’re now espousing. When you are indeed thinking about the specific case, you don’t have to say “Actually I’m a such-and-such” for people to see that you are in fact coming to your judgment from real thinking.

But when it is not coming from actual thought and an actual open mind, some find advantage in leading people to think that their writings do come from these. One way is for them to say that they are no subscriber to any general position or camp or are unbiased: another way is to claim that they actually are a member of the camp which they are not.

There is no need for this for those who are honest. This is why that behavior is puzzling for you, I think. But for at least three of these, there is such an advantage in the claim.

As for Mufasa, I don’t think that’s the case for him though.
There is at least one other possible explanation. Terms can be relative. It may well be that his friends do consider him to be a conservative. His friends could for example all be card-carrying members of the CPUSA ( I kid ), or otherwise be very lefty. Relative to various possible other persons, he very well could be called conservative by them.
I absolutely expect he is being straight-up here.
And as you said, he ( is Switzerland :slight_smile: neutral by nature and there is nothing wrong with that.
Switzerland has done quite well like that, actually.

On a deeper psychological level, those calling others moonbats for expressing their intellectually honest but PC-unacceptable questions ( Jay Pierce never stated he believed it was a hoax - that is a lie ) pretend to be what they are not to get the approval of the group in their scapegoating ( pack mentality ).

Thank you for reminding of the Princess Bride!

I watched it years ago and will now watch again.

38

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Either way, I will have to bow out of our tussle at the point. My wife’s mother has been in the hospital for several months and the doctors notified us a few hours ago that they do not expect her to last through the week. I put the wife on a plane and will follow with the kids. I mention it only for the perspective it might bring to our arguing. In the end, it is not that important. [/quote]

Oh dear.

Be strong for them!

My best thoughts to your family.

39

[quote]JEATON wrote:

Either way, I will have to bow out of our tussle at the point. My wife’s mother has been in the hospital for several months and the doctors notified us a few hours ago that they do not expect her to last through the week. I put the wife on a plane and will follow with the kids. I mention it only for the perspective it might bring to our arguing. In the end, it is not that important. [/quote]

While there are other points to respond to, none of them matter a wit in the scope of family and dealing with what is currently on your plate, and I wish you and your family the very best, and Godspeed to your mother-in-law’s side.

40

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
( Jay Pierce never stated he believed it was a hoax - that is a lie )
[/quote]

Bullshit.

When he said that he was sure that the girl in the picture was the same one that was said to have been killed, what exactly do you believe he meant? That she had been reanimated by a witch-doctor?

Good God.