T Nation

The PCT SERM dosing in this forum is wrong


#1

The advice and practices I am now seeing in this forum are horrible. The fact that is has not [yet] crippled some guys is not the determining factor. The issues re high dose hCG and high dose SERMs was resolved here around 8 years ago and that perspective has been lost. More is not better and more can be harmful.

hCG or SERM use during a cycle should stimulating LH receptors at levels that normal LH lab range. If you expose LH receptors to high levels of LH, hCG or LH+hCG then transition to normal LH levels [if you are lucky] post PCT, what do you expect your testes to do with this huge LH or LH+hCG level drop? It can only be bad.

SERM doses should not be high. 100-50mg is totally stupid. I am not here to make you feel good about this. 20mg SERM EOD is probably all that one needs.

High dose SERM or high dose hCG leads to high T-->E2 inside the testes. And your competitive AI anastrozole is ineffective inside the testes and serum E2 can be way out of control. Never stack SERM+hCG. Your end of PCT can expose the HPTA to that residual E2 and down it goes. Your SERM only protects "Selected" tissues from estrogens, the others are awash in estrogens that limit gains, energy and libido. E2 management is critical and SERMs do not negate the need for decent E2 management; which is impossible with high dose SERMs or hCG.

The SERM tapers from insane doses to lower misses the whole point of the taper. The taper allows T and estrogen levels to drop so the HPTA does not see high negative feedback after the SERM is no longer hiding estrogens from the hypothalamus. SERM taper should be tapering slowly down from 20mg EOD. You need to avoid estrogen rebound, not just go through the motions.

While managing E2 levels with a AI during PCT, you need to manage E2 levels post PCT. 0.5mg anastrozole per week in divided EOD dosing should do a good job and cruise on that, tapering out after a few weeks. This will reduce any estrogen rebound tendencies.

If you have gyno, the problem is too much estrogen, not a need for high dose SERMs.

More is not better, more is stupid. PCT is not a suicide mission.


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#2

My approach is that the testes should never go into shutdown.

LH receptor support can be from low dose hCG or low dose SERM.

From my perspective anchoring the TRT forum, I am adverse to things that can contribute to hypogonadism or sterility.


#3

What would you consider a low dose SERM on cycle?


#4

so is the standard clomid at 50mg for 4 weeks not correct? It's always served me well although I do occasionally deal with E rebound issues, so I think I'll start doing what you said about continuing the AI through PCT and for a little while after


#5

Great post, thanks for the writeup KSMan. Interested to see follow up.


#6

[/quote]

What would you consider a low dose SERM on cycle?[/quote]

From what we see with TRT guys using SERMs when hCG is not available, 20mg ED or EOD can create some decent LH/FSH levels. I have been suggesting that guys check LH/FSH when taking a SERM to see where their LH/FSH levels are. When docs put guys on high amounts of SERMs we see very high E2 and a couple of docs had guys taking more and more anastrozole and could not figure that out. Knowing that intratesticular T levels in normal guys can be up to 80 time serum T levels; I immediately knew why anastrozole was not effective. So while LH/FSH-->zero on TRT or gear and testing LH/FSH is futile, this can be done with T+SERM.

Maybe some here can test LH/FSH while on a SERM. At the TRT forum, almost all have secondary hypogonadism and perhaps there LH/FSH response to SERMs is less than what guys here might achieve.

From the point of view of maintaining the testes, not much hCG or LH is required. We are not trying to get the testes to produce a lot of T. So mid-range or upper mind-range on lab reports would be good.

Some docs Rx huge hCG doses which creates a mess too.


#7

agreed.

i'd appreciate your clarification on my PCT thread if you see anything i'm off base about.


#8

Your thread looks good. I have not examined durations of things, noting that I suggest that testicular shutdown should not happen at all.

I can't comment on toremifene at 60 mg/day as I have not really looked at toremifene and don't know what its advantages/doses are. There seems to be some references for protecting the prostate; but if studies were done on Clomid or Nolvadex, they might have similar effects.


PCT and Cycle Opinion
#9

So would you still suggest a 4 week PCT at something like 25mg clomid EOD(assuming the 20mg you referenced is Nolva) ant tapering down or would the PCT run longer?

Also, I'm doing 12 weeks @ 400mg Test-E/week, would you suggest taking the 10-14 days off before starting PCT like has been advised? I saw on another thread where I believe you told somebody else to take nolva during week 13 when he said he was going to take nothing. What you said makes alot of sense, this is my first cycle, just want to do it right. Thanks


#10

I think that specifics should be discussed in cycobushmaster's PCT thread. There should not be a duplication of effort.

Length of PCT discussion needs to be in the context of what has been done during the cycle to prevent testicular shut down [hCG or SERM] and preventing hypothalamus-pitutiary shutdown [SERM]. And that addresses the issue of taking nothing for "10-14 days"; if you have been supporting the HPTA during the cycle, its insane to stop that for a period before PCT.

Everything needs to be in context and well thought out. Can't deal with these things with individual isolated sub-topics. There needs to be guidance build around defined strategies re what gets shutdown and what does not. If HPTA is supported all through a cycle, PCT all most seems to go away. If there has been total HPTA shutdown, then PCT needs to take time to first recover testicular form and function. See the complexities?

I am not volunteering to take over these issues on this forum. I am pushing for change, not implementing. I have enough to do at the TRT forum.


#11

Gotcha. By the end, I will have ran hcg the whole cycle.


#12

Please see: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/thoughts_on_planning_pct


#13

I have one more question man, if you don't mind. Long story, but I miscalculated my hcg and will be about 2 weeks worth shy of what I was planning. Fortunately, I have a crapload of clomid. I read your response up top about .20 ED or EOD. Would that be an appropriate dosage of clomid that I could finish up my cycle with? I really like your method and reasoning and want to stick with that. I really can't get a blood test, I'm working overseas right now and where I'm at, it's just not possible. Thanks again.


#14

Elegy,

Yes, that would work. Suggest that you spend more time on clomid which will have the hypothalamus and pituitary working.
Good luck with your PCT and stretch out the SERM taper as best as you can.


#15

Hey man can you help me, this is my second cycle and i need advice, im sorry if im jacking your thread but you seem to know what you are talking about i read through your post and i just want some clarification, will you help me please

Okay this is My second Cycle (First time using Oils) I ran Epistane first for 4 weeks @ 40mg ED Then i followed Up with Nolvadex for 4 Weeks 40/40/20/20

Ive now taken a break for 8weeks total to allow recovery time and i healed just fine.

My New cycle I am planning looks like this

Sustanon250 @ 500mg/week for 12 weeks and i want to stack with Epistane for the last 6 weeks @ 40mg ED, Do I need and AI While on cycle? (I know epistane is anti estrogen but its not an AI).

For Pct I have Nolvadex and clomid, Do i Need Hcg also?

This is my pct plan i am going to run for 6 weeks

20mgNolva + 50mgClomid ED (is the dosing correct or should i double)

and when is the best time to start pct, is it 3weeks after last shot?

I have cycle support and i am going to use it 2 weeks before i start my cycle up until 2weeks after pct.

Please don't hate, I just need advice so i don't want to damage myself.

Thanks In Advance


#16

"20mgNolva + 50mgClomid ED (is the dosing correct or should i double) "

You have completely missed the point of this thread.

Also: Epistane is a [banned] prohormone that has the same criminalization as testosterone and other gear. I am surprised that its still sought after or available.


#17

[quote]KSman wrote:
SERM doses should not be high. 100-50mg is totally stupid. I am not here to make you feel good about this. 20mg SERM EOD is probably all that one needs.

Hey, a lot of confusing going on here, I am starting PCT in 3 weeks from now, so am I reading correct that 20mg of Nolva every other day is the best option?? Yes or No?


#18

If you read the whole post, you will see that the intent is to avoid testicular shutdown. Then the PCT is time to wash out T then taper off of the SERM. This is contrast to letting the testes shutdown and shrink, then needing to later recover size and function. You can maintain normal LH/FSH levels with low dose SERM and you definitely do not want high dose SERM creating high LH/FSH then expect the testes to transition to recovered function by sending a signal of a large drop in LH/FSH as PCT is completed.

Again, this was discussed 8-9 years ago and the theme was that more is not better.

You also have to appreciate that I am coming at this from the point of view of someone who has been working for years helping guys who have low testosterone. Some of those cases are from damage caused by gear and/or PCT that did not work. I was rather shocked when I came over hear recently and saw what people were doing and recommending for PCT.


#19

Not to derail this thread, as it is a good one, but people are still using epistane simply because it's an effective oral steroid, and not the hardest thing to find. A lot of people stocked up before the ban. I know people who prefer it over many other more traditional oral steroids (dbol, anadrol, winstrol, etc.) Sides tend to be minimal with it.


#20

You have an appreciation of what epistane is useful for. I do not have that knowledge base.