The other side

danh,

Good point. And my one-sidedness is restricted to the occupation itself. I think Israel has a right to exist, of course, and I condemn terrorist attacks against their civilian popuations. There’s plenty of blame to go around. However, the occupation is at the heart of what I post here.

I don’t think I’m particularly one-sided here. The US condemned post-World War II occupations of Eastern Europe by the Soviet Union, and we unequivocally condemned the absorption of the Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia) by the Soviets. We historically condemn this sort of thing, and the rest of the world, including Europe, sees the occupation very differently than we Americans do.

doogie, it’s not their land. virtually every government organization in the world considers the west bank and gaza as occupied territory.

israel will not claim the land because it will have to absorb the palestinian occupation. they do not want this because they will be overrun by an arab majority.

danh:
what you said in your last post is true. the problem is that pulling away from there is putting ourselves in mortal risk, based on the last 100 years of arab behaviour.

mark, sorry if i generalized your comments. i do realize that you were countering brian’s one-sided arguments.

do you agree with me that we need leadership change in israel, palestine, and the US?

brian, i don’t think you’ve conceded any points that go against israel (correct me if i’m wrong). you’ve already told us what you think the palestinians and arabs in general are doing wrong. what do you think israel can do to better the violence? what about the US?

glute, i hope you realize that i (part jewish) am NOT blanket anti-israel, anti-jew, pro-arab, pro-palestinian. i form my opinions with whatever information i have; that means that an opinion i form at any given moment could be perseived as pro-israel or anti-israel.

when i see a video of the IDF deliberatly launching a 2nd rocket in the way of good samaritans helping out the victims of the 1st rocket, then i can’t help but think that someone in the IDF and possibly someone in the cabinet is giving the order to intenionally target innocent civilians. that is a point against israel.

similarly, when the plo fails to take a more proactive approach to dissuading suicide bombings, it makes me think that it is not not satisfied (intentional double negative) when one occurs. that’s a point against the palestinian authority.

all, when we deal with religious/fundamentalist zealots on any side, there is no way we can reach a compromise. the best thing to do is to abandon these ppl and leave them as powerless as they deserve to be. in my opinion, these ppl are 1) the ultra-conservative wing of the likud party 2) palestinians who seek nothing less than the annihilation of israel, and 3) the neoconservatives in the US who are major advocates of pre-emptive war.

we need people willing to compromise. if we’re left with anyone else then we’re all screwed.

i think wesley clark’s idea of installing nato or UN troops in the occupied territories is an excellent idea:

  1. palestinians will no longer consider themselves occupied by israel, hopefully resulting in fewer terror attacks by fundamentalists
  2. fewer accidental and intentional human rights violations, hopefully resulting in fewer suicide attacks by revenge-seekers
  3. israel will maintain its security, hopefully resulting in fewer military incursions
  4. palestinian nation-building can be accelerated (economy, political process, etc.), inciting hope in the general populace
  5. US credibilty as the moral, global police force will be somewhat restored.

the only problem is, our troops are kinda stuck in iraq for at least a couple more years. let’s hope that turns out well.

I need to see that video. and by the way, if youve ever been under fire youll know that when under fire, you dont look for good samaritans. I have friends who were killed like this: in the start in the current intifada, knowing we dont shoot at stone throwers/rioters, soldiers stood openly exposed in front of a rioting crowd and palestinian gunmen used the cover of the crowd to come forward and shoot them. they COUNTED on our humanity. they keep counting on it when they smuggle bombs in an ambulance with 7 wounded children (video on the net) when they send suicide bombers disguised as pregnant women, when they send 12 year old kids to deliever weapons and explossives, the list dont stop. its all a matter of education or lack there of, people who kill their own women for being raped or even rumored to be raped would not hesitate to use any means they can to win in their quest to destroy Israel and in turn all who will oppose them.

regarding human rights violations:

COME ON! whos rights were more vioalted, the people blown up by a sucide bomber or the proud parents of this bomber getting their homes demolished?

HUMAN RIGHTS. right.

Damn. When I saw the subject I thought it was going to be a discussion of Lesbians or anal. Why such a little piss ant area deserves so much world attention is beyond me. Anyone know of a Jewish/Palistinian lesbian relationship?

JP:
youre a sick man
youre sick if youre thinking about an international relationship, not about lesbians… we have some beutifull bi’s here in tel aviv.

glute, i couldnt find the video itself, but here is the herald tribune’s article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/114897.html

read the whole thing, because stopping with the first few paragraphs may lead you to believe something else.

danh,

So they couldn’t see the people in the alley until the smoke cleared from the second strike?

Actually, Brian you still haven’t told me whether you think Hamas and PLO’s attacks are morally equivalent to the tactics of Gandhi and the ANC. I am you’ve stated that you don’t approve of suicide killings (as Arafat says 50% of the time), but please give me a direct answer to this.

This video was released by the IDF to show that there were not people on the street for the second strike! The question is whether they were in alleys, where the pilots couldn’t see them. Since the IDF distributed the video to the press out of the blue, it’s clear that it doesn’t expose their intention to kill civilians. Perhaps everyone’s seen the video where Hamas militants hide behind children as they shoot at the IDF. Or perhaps they’ve seen the video that showed Hezbollah kidnapping 3 Israeli soldiers the UN hid from the world community for eight months (!!!) because they didn’t want to “undermine U.N. neutrality.”

I wasn’t aware that I have to say something in favor of both the Palestinians and the Israelis to be in the right in this matter. This is politics, not kindergarten… As for my “solution” to the problem, it changes, but I believe in 2 states, as I’ve said. Perhaps UN soldiers could manage the Dome of the Rock where fundamentalists Muslims would be loathe to try to attack. Otherwise, most of them can’t be trusted with Israeli lives and our country should not put American troops in jeopardy for “a job that Jewish boys can be doin’ for themselves” (to paraphrase Johnson, who was actually FOS when he said it about Vietnam)

I personally think that the Israelis should keep on building the fence and annex the biggest settlements, be very public about stopping any settlements considerably away from the biggest settlements (irrespective of what goes on at the peace table) and buy them from the Jews and sell them to Arabs who would not be disposed to use them against Israel (most of them Christians). At the negotiating table, I think the fence could be taken down in select areas which are acceptable risks and over time, gradually in more and more places as the PA shows that it can handle potential suicide killers. But in the meantime, the entire educational system in Palestine has to be changed away from the virulent antisemitism as promised in Oslo (and anti-Americanism, for that matter.) Also, the corruption in the PA has to stop so that their leaders are more accountable to their people. But there other other issues regarding the Arab states that I have not touched upon, including a uninanimous condemnation of suicide killing as a tactic of resistance–Palestinian or otherwise–and our foreign aid being withdrawn for any government-supported propoganda against Israel, Jews and the West;

I also think we better move away from oil real fast and toward hydrogen fuel. The rest of the world should have notice that we’re going to be less beholden to the Middle East tha previously and better able to pick and choose our relationships with developing democracies. No more of this Kirkpatrick doctrine the way we have wielded it so far.

Whoops! I was talking to Mark R., not myself about comparing the Palestinians and Gandhi and the ANC. Got out of control with the cut-and-paste from WordPad. I’m managing most of this text off-line because my connection is so clunky.

doogie,

“But close viewing of the grainy black-and-white video appears to show people rushing into an alley near the car after the first missile was fired and before the second missile struck, about one minute later.”

it’s pretty hard for me to think that a country that has at least inch-resolution surveillance equipment (remember when they supposedly debunked a palestinian the palestinian funeral: http://www.idf.il/english/news/funeral.stm) doesn’t have at least the same grade equipment when it bombs a suspected militant. if you can see people on the first link then you can probably see people in the recent video.

regardless if this turns out to be a genuine mistake by a technologically well endowned idf, there are other examples of where israel ‘loses a point’ in my book. declaring permanent settlement status to new settlements deep inside the west bank and gaza are clear indications that the israeli leadership wishes to stray from the road map. settlements in gaza don’t lead to greater security for israel, it leads to less.

brian,
as i said before, the IDF has at at least inch-resolution surveillance technology. because of classification concerns, they are not gonna release video that tells the whole world what their surveillance capabilities are. that said, it’s hard for me to believe that israelis who are tracking a suspected militant from above, happen to be using their shittiest technology for the operation. that doesn’t make sense.

why did they cut short the first video by saying “there is nothing of interest” just after the second strike. did they not want you to see what was there after the smoke cleared? yes, they were able to see those people after the smoke cleared, because you and i are able to see the people during the smoke (i’m not talking about during the attack, im talking about the video presented)! the first presentation makes it clear they weren’t very honest with their claim that the casualty list was a complete hoax. it undermines their credibility when they say they just did not know there were civilians around when they shot the 2nd rocket. (why shoot a 2nd rocket in the first place?)

although i dont agree with your short term solution regarding the settlements, im glad you concede that land must eventually be turned over.

yes, i would like to see the US develop its other energy resources, drill if alaska if needed. susidize solar power. rethink nuclear. invest HEAVILY in plasma fusion technology.

OK, Mark, you do the legwork and research the kind of cameras Israel has on that helicopter, whether it’s a “superduper James Bond smart bomb” camera or just mounted to get a hazy black and white record, like on many American police cars. Then you find out whether on request, Israel gave the journalists all the footage. THEN accuse Israel of going out of its way to kill civilians, you sweet, sweet boy, you.

I didn’t “concede” anything. I think Israel should turn over some land.

Danh: “having a fence as a bargaining chip is almost as bad as having suicide bombings as bargaining chips”

Sweet, sweet boy.

Brian,

Were you addressing that question about helicopters to danh? You seem to be getting confused with names. Also, will you please stop demanding that I answer questions for you? If you have a question, just ask. Your habit of posting lists of ten and then verifying my citings is getting tiresome, and it seems too much like work to me. I never thought I’d have to document and footnote my posts on a damn weightlifting board.

You keep asking and asking and asking me if I approve of suicide bombings, and keep telling you that I don’t. Read carefully this time…I DON’T FUCKING APPROVE OF SUICIDE BOMBINGS AGAINST CIVILIANS, PERIOD. I hope that was clear enough for you.

It seems as though you keep trying to make this the central issue, as per the Christian Zionist talking points. Since you keep demanding answers of me, I’m still waiting for you to justify the occupation. You tried to feed us the Israeli line that it’s for security. Please explain to us how this gives Israel any security, and how this justifies keeping people in an apparently never-ending occupation. Thanks.

brian

i’ve given you a lot of material. since you’ve cast doubt on virtually every single point i’ve made that happens to be against israel, i’m convinced you’ll declare my analyses invalid because of random bad punction or spelling i.e. stall with the details and forget/ignore the main arguments.

ok. so you don’t concede anything. now i know you are close-minded and that you wont be swayed by facts and meaningful aguments. i am convinced that you are either a brainwashed joe incapable of independent thought or a religious zealot (whether a jewish or christian zionist i don’t know and i dont care.)

no point talking to you anymore. (i can’t believe i wasted my time with you.)

Mark, I’d only like the answer to one question. I don’t want to know whether you “approve” of suicide killings. I want to know whether you feel that they are morally equivalent to other means of resistance.

A question like, “Why do you feel it helps Israel’s security?” is kind of inane. EVERY party is aware that the Judean-Samarian mountain range and other geographical features, not to mention the “buffer zone” factor gives Israel an advantage in military defense that it did not have in 1967.

Furthermore, mortar fire from private groups is now a concern (as weapons technology has changed) and control of various strategic patches of land is a preventative measure against similar such assaults by terrorists. Otherwise, for example, an Israeli airport is in easy range of a shoulder-mounted missile. Why are you asking such a question?

I don’t know what the hell Christian Zionists have to do with me. If their religious beliefs about the significance of land lead them to have more insight into the plight of the Israelis and less empathy for those Palestinians’ whose murderous delusions outweigh the legitimate grievances of their countrymen, then I suppose that is a good thing. I’m going to support a 2-state solution no matter what Gary Bauer thinks.

“Neverending” is charged language, which seems to be your bag, instead of insightful comment. 36 years with an attempted plan to give back the land nixed by Arafat, is not “neverending,” especially when the Israelis WANT to give the land back ASAP, only not at the cost of their own lives.

I dont see the problem. so maybe some civilians harboring terrorists died, well, you cant have a 100% shooting accuracy.am I happy that they died? ofcourse not. was it valid moraly? you betcha’. even while approximatley 750,000 Israelies are injured mentally or phisicaly from terror, I’m not indifferent to those people dying, I wish they hadnt. but thats the worls we live in and see my post “a question or two” about simmilar actions and morality.

Glute, Danh is a military genius whose latest theories will now save the army the risks and costs of a second strike in a targetted assassination…

Don’t entertain any of his nonsense. His “impartiality” and request for “new leadership across the board” is a weak disguise for his general antipathy toward Israel. He is trying to lay the blame for the cost of American lives on Israel and American Jews. The way he tried to frame Deuteronomy 20 remains inexcusable. Don’t lower yourself and waste your time with his BS.