Mark, I've already addressed your "Israelis think God gave them the land" comments in the WW3 thread so the list:
(1) You seem to have dodged the question as to whether Gandhi's methods or Mandela's ANC as morally equal to suicide killings. Please answer this directly.
In answer to your question, in South Africa, the people did NOT use non-violent resistance but used violence against soldiers and infrastructure, not women and children. From what you’ve written, it does not seem you were aware of this basic fact. In my view, the ANC was justified (although Mandela and his wife have both become disappointments to me and others subsequent to the end of apartheid). But my question was not about the rightness of Gandhi or Mandela's causes (or their feelings about the Middle East), but about the rightness of their methods as compared to suicide killings. If the Palestinians only attacked soldiers, they would be soldiers themselves, not genocidal butchers. That was my point, now please answer my question.
I should however mention that by ending the quote as you did, you imply that Ghandi would not be critical of the Palestinians’ nationalist methods. In fact, in the same essay, he argues against fighting against the Nazis in World War 2 because
" . If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany, to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be
completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is therefore outside my horizon or province. " His advice to the Jews is to fight anti-Semitism by demanding full rights in their countries of birth and not giving antisemites a case by asking for a national homeland. He writes:
“If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my example”
Suffice it to say, Gandhi would not have given his approval to Palestinian suicide killers. He was against violence by all peoples against all peoples.
(2) Your example of "ethnic cleansing" in 1948 took place after these people aided and abetted a murderous rampage. Leaders of Arab nations have also admitted their responsibility in making them refugees. As for settlements, ethnic cleansing is not building settlements where no one resides. The settlers typically build IN territory surrounded by Palestinians, but not OVER Palestinian property. Secondly, building a wall that separates two states does not constitute "ethnic cleansing," unless you're referring to the small number of people who are dispossessed on the line of wall. But using the label in this way devalues the enormity of actual ethnic cleansing taking place in the world (and also ignores that this small group is being replaced by a wall, not another group). When you say it "dispossesses Palestinians from their land," do you mean all of Israel is their land? If so, then there's no point in this discussion.
(3) I don't feel that your definition of "apartheid state" is sufficient. A grievance for full voting representation does not indicate an apartheid state (otherwise the American colonies under England were living in an "apartheid state"), but a complete Jim-Crow situation does. Arab Israeli citizens have the same legal rights as Jewish Israeli citizens. In fact the Arabs have more legal rights and voting rights in Israel than they have in any Arab state! As for the non-citizen Arabs in the territories, they are represented by the Palestinian Authority, in which Fatah manages the voting system with outrageous corruption. If special voting rights are accorded to Jews it's to keep the country a Jewish state. And if a Jewish state is by definition an "apartheid state," then that's begging the question, and there is no point in discussing anything with you.
(4) You wrote that Jews "had less than 50% of the land in 1948, when they simply took the rest of it by declaring statehood, supported by the British." That just contradicts basic history.
(5) "Israel has complete control over the occupied territories." Your denial that the Israelis have given the Palestinians civil jurisdiction over virtually all the land is plain incorrect. Did you just say this reflexively?
(6) Actually, Israelis elected Barak and Rabin before Netanyahu and Sharon, when they decided to make security more of priority as they continued to look for peace. And labor leaders are AGAINST settlement construction! Where the heck do you get your information? Check out the polls, the majority of Israelis support a Palestinian state, the majority of Palestinians support suicide bombings (69%)
(7) Imperialist powers don't want to eject people from land, but want to use the people on the land? So in your view, is Israel an imperialist power or does it want the land for itself?
As for MY view, the U.S. should continue to support Israel because
1) as President Johnson first decided after the ’67 War, Israel is a potent military ally in the Middle East. We can’t always depend on Turkey (and now Iraq).
2) the technical, medical and scientific research done by Israel benefits United States citizens and the U.S. economy
3) the U.S. should support democracies across the globe amidst tyrannies. Why? Because to endure, every nation has to have values that they protect in spite of criticism, and because plainly and simply, democracy is right and totalitarianism is wrong.
4) the US should not give support to ANY side that employs suicide killings and embraces the targeting of civilian lives as a charter position. To do otherwise, would be to allow death cults to develop and spread across the globe.
5) if the U.S. gives in to ANY of the demands of Islamic totalitarianism in the face of their attempts at intimidation, it will encourage them (as it did with Beirut), and we will face more terrorist attacks.