The Non Thibaudeau Thread

[quote]gavra wrote:

[quote]doctor92 wrote:
Having tried both Waterbury’s and CT’s approach to lower reps, I can say that ramping is definitely better. It sounds strange, but sometimes I think that just the act of changing the weight after every set forces you to keep focus, as opposed to keeping the same weight as Waterbury would say.
[/quote]

yes, exactly the point of ramping is to RAMP the CNS rather than actual way of loading as CT said, and he is right… sometimes… (i trained similar to this for longer time, using various east european routines) I GET BETTER PERFORMANCE IF I DO 6X3 with the same weight, then I just keep the same weight cause sets 4-6 are really PERFECT ones as far as my performance, so as i said, getting max performance is the goal, not the actual loading… sometimes I ramp up, the power is not there, so I go back down… then up again… its gets better, so again I go all the way down and climb it up for even BETTER performance, the one I’m after… there I stop… basically I did 3 workouts then and there… and sometimes i ramp up and just keep doing sets using 75-85% until performance drops a bit (sometime i stop before that)… of course i always try to get as much volume as possible in 75-85% range

to cut it… ramping has its place, but straight weight can be used too… it has its place…

HP mass is a set of principles rather than actual workout that CT recommends… workout is just LEVEL 1, and uses the most basic set of principles… and he’s right about that… I mean some people cant get it THIS SIMPLE, imagine if CT would throw in more advanced stuff right of the bat…

i think CT said there is nothing wrong with full body except that some people get it as they have to do every muscle, from every angle in every full body workout… there we get a problem… but if you look it like this… sheiko is full body, and WSB is upper/lower (sometimes even full body)… i mean who cares if routine packs on muscle :slight_smile:

you can always add various circuits at the end… max rep, isolation, strength etc… coupled with sled and eccentric less stuff… it is fair amount of bodybuilding work… if you look at it closely, everything is included in this HP mass based routine…

pressing doesnt have clear preference… it just again CT is right about that not every muscle has to be trained equally… lats/bis simply require different way of loading… and you load every muscle with the type of workout they need… after all MOST back muscles are worked more than pressing muscles sometimes… again, you work rear delts, rhomboids, traps every workout, so why do you think this leads to postural problems???

look, muscles on the back of the body are real delts, traps, rhomboids, hamstrings, glutes, lower back… WHICH ONE OF THESE MUSCLES IS NOT WORKED ENOUGH… I mean you work them EVERY WORKOUT…

I met this guy at european championships held in Vrsac in 2003 and 2003 (IPF, EPF)…

looks like a ramping???

here is he benching… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Sjbxz8ZI4&playnext=1&list=PLC048B452507A465E&index=67

he is like 50 years old… i trained similar to this… and still i prefer this type of training… and I can assure you its builds muscle… look at any east european routine… it has similarities…
[/quote]

You make a good point about the back of the body muscles being worked every workout, but pressing clearly has a preference in this routine. That is why the two main workouts are upper body and lower body pressing, and CT claims to upper body press every workout, or day, I cannot remember.

However, the back of the body muscles are not being worked to the extent that the front are. First point is the CT says the upper body assistance work CAN be staggered, but does not make the point that it is a necessity. Further, it seems as though the intensity of the assistance workout is low compared to the pressing. So while the muscles are being worked, are they being worked equally?

Nonetheless, I love this kind of training, but I think it needs to be tailored to individual needs, and not advertised as the greatest thing for everyone. I just see a problem with upper body pressing six times a week, with only one lat day.

I am also trying to figure out why there is no calf work in this program. A very intelligent trainer once said(cannot remember the name, I know that helps a lot :/) to never take calf advice from someone who won the genetic lottery for calves. CT is one of those guys, as he said in a previous article he always had good calves. There are people who will need direct calf work, despite his claims that they get stimulated enough. Stimulation for the calves during the squat occurs in the walk out mainly. This happens for about a second. Furthermore, people with genetically wimpy calves(me being one of them) have those genetically wimpy calves because of a low percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers and HT motor units. Obviously other work needs to be done.

[quote]doctor92 wrote:
I am also trying to figure out why there is no calf work in this program. A very intelligent trainer once said(cannot remember the name, I know that helps a lot :/) to never take calf advice from someone who won the genetic lottery for calves. CT is one of those guys, as he said in a previous article he always had good calves. There are people who will need direct calf work, despite his claims that they get stimulated enough. Stimulation for the calves during the squat occurs in the walk out mainly. This happens for about a second. Furthermore, people with genetically wimpy calves(me being one of them) have those genetically wimpy calves because of a low percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers and HT motor units. Obviously other work needs to be done.[/quote]

squat walkouts… have you read the part or watched the video about eccentric less work, your calves will get stimulated there more than enough… at least mine do… since i started doing it, my calves have never been better…

Hi, Doctor,

I also do not see pressing 6 days a week unless for competitive olympic athletes maybe. I press 3-4 days and also do some back work on each of those days, though not to same intensity (effort) as the presses and using higher rep ranges.

Calf work: Agreed fully. Can never take advice from someone who has great calves. Same for forearms. I believe most people need some direct work in both areas. And that this is important: the calves are the closest thing to the ground/base when doing a lot of work; and the forearms/grip also does a lot.

[quote]doctor92 wrote:
You make a good point about the back of the body muscles being worked every workout, but pressing clearly has a preference in this routine. That is why the two main workouts are upper body and lower body pressing, and CT claims to upper body press every workout, or day, I cannot remember.
[/quote]

YES… even if the pressing has a preferance its because CT belleives it has to, after all NOT every muscle has to be worked the same… thats the main point i wanted to say… after all did you trained your forearms with the same intensity/volume/frequency as your chest or legs???

AGAIN POINT IS… not every MUSCLE has to be worked the same… after all not every muscles function is the same… if you want to do pulling muscles every day, you can do it with eccentric less stuff, whats wrong with that???

look… lower back/hams/glutes (hams, glutes get hit with eccentric less also) will be stimulated with every set of squats/deads, every other muscle is staggered between pressing muscles… stagger them between every set if you feel like… if you feel better then stagger the pressing sets between the sets of back muscles… whatever way you turn it its the same…

[quote]
Nonetheless, I love this kind of training, but I think it needs to be tailored to individual needs, and not advertised as the greatest thing for everyone. I just see a problem with upper body pressing six times a week, with only one lat day.[/quote]

again… not every muscle has to be worked the same… but to make it more clear… here is my workout…

monday/tuesday:
upper body pressing with staggered sets for traps/rhomboids/rear delts
squat

hour or so later
eccentric less work (pressing muscles, lats, little bit of legs)

wednesday: NC workout

thursday/friday:
lower body pressing
floor press with staggered sets for traps/rhomboids/rear delts

hour or so later
eccentric less work (legs fully, and a bit of pressing muscles and lats)

saturday
lats/bis
eccentric less work for lats (and a bit for legs and pressing muscles)

sunday: NC

soooo… lets see…
UB pressing muscles are worked on monday/tuesday/thursday/friday
LB pressing the same
Lats THE SAME + workout on saturday
traps/rhomboids/rear delts are worked monday/tuesday/thursday/friday plus eccentric less sometimes (few distances)

damn hahaha, i didnt even know, lats get worked EVEN more than pressing muscles in my layout…

its JUST EVERYBODY HERE forgot for eccentric less stuff… you can work your lats every day like that…

whats your approach on nutrition around neural charge workouts? im sure thibs has mentioned about this on live spill or something, but i didnt catch it.

ive been taking about 40 grams of whey for a post workout shake, but havent really eaten a big meal with plenty carbs like after regular workouts. im trying to gain lean(ish)mass, so would it be profitable to eat a decent size meal after nc workouts? how about carbs in the post workout shake?

is there a “metabolic window” after 20 minutes of nc work? my guess is not since the training effect is not that metabolic but please correct if im wrong.

oh yeah, im not on Anaconda.

[quote]elkeezy wrote:
im not on Anaconda.[/quote]

lol

basic question i didn’t want to ask thibs - what does he mean by “metabolic fatigue” during workouts (as opposed to CNS fatigue which i understand). Further, when doing the sled work will grinding out “sled reps” induce CNS fatigue?

[quote]Pavlo1 wrote:
basic question i didn’t want to ask thibs - what does he mean by “metabolic fatigue” during workouts (as opposed to CNS fatigue which i understand). Further, when doing the sled work will grinding out “sled reps” induce CNS fatigue?[/quote]

i think he means (more or less) muscular fatigue. stop sets before muscular failure, and stop the session when you have a good pump and had a thorough WO

could be wrong but thats what i’ve taken from what ive read

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]Pavlo1 wrote:
basic question i didn’t want to ask thibs - what does he mean by “metabolic fatigue” during workouts (as opposed to CNS fatigue which i understand). Further, when doing the sled work will grinding out “sled reps” induce CNS fatigue?[/quote]

i think he means (more or less) muscular fatigue. stop sets before muscular failure, and stop the session when you have a good pump and had a thorough WO

could be wrong but thats what i’ve taken from what ive read[/quote]

Metabolic fatigue is a result of the depletion of fuel sources (ATP/CP, glucose and stored glycogen) and the build-up of energy metabolism by-products.

In other words, lactic acid build-up in muscle, depletion of fuel equals burn and drop in performance as well as interfering with recovery instead of helping.

Metabolic fatigue is basically running out of breath.

[quote]
yes, exactly the point of ramping is to RAMP the CNS rather than actual way of loading as CT said, and he is right… sometimes… (i trained similar to this for longer time, using various east european routines) I GET BETTER PERFORMANCE IF I DO 6X3 with the same weight, then I just keep the same weight cause sets 4-6 are really PERFECT ones as far as my performance, so as i said, getting max performance is the goal, not the actual loading… sometimes I ramp up, the power is not there, so I go back down… then up again… its gets better, so again I go all the way down and climb it up for even BETTER performance, the one I’m after… there I stop… basically I did 3 workouts then and there… and sometimes i ramp up and just keep doing sets using 75-85% until performance drops a bit (sometime i stop before that)… of course i always try to get as much volume as possible in 75-85% range

to cut it… ramping has its place, but straight weight can be used too… it has its place… [/quote]

I really like this, i am finding 2-4 sets of the same weight - usually top weight of the day - really improves in performance set to set. Its simpler then constant waving too. Ramp first.

Hey guys,

Are any of you attempting this program without sled work?

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Hey guys,

Are any of you attempting this program without sled work?[/quote]

I tried it once with a homemade tire with 1/2 inch rope. It smoked me, i put 2 20KG plates on the tire and pull it around for 20min, i was gased.

I just made 2 eyes in the end of the rope to pass around my inzer belt and to pull it.

I used a simple bowline for handles.