The Next 50 Billion

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

“We are going to rebuild 150,000 miles of our roads – that’s enough to circle the world six times. … We’re going to lay and maintain 4,000 miles of our railways – enough to stretch coast-to-coast,” Obama told a labor rally in Milwaukee where several thousand supporters cheered his every line.

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.
[/quote]

Exactly, heres $50 billion for shit we don’t need. Woohoo. Infrastructure spending in a recession is idiotic beyond the pale. Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

Not quite true, I think. Many European countries have a railway and transportation system that makes us look like we’re still in the stone age. America’s passenger train system is pathetic by international standards. Take France for example. Franceâ??s TGV high-speed trains carried 100 million people in 2008, and the national rail company employs about 200,000 people. France is 1/5th the size of the U.S. in population. By extrapolation, an equivalent American rail network could transport 500 million passengers a year on fast rail and provide jobs for one million people operating trains, maintaining track, and serving customers. I’d expect there to be some sustainable and permanent job creation.

If anything, I see this as a longterm project that will provide needed modernization and increase the number of jobs provided by a particular industry. What I’m less clear on is that it’s going to translate to any appreciable bump in employment on any imminent basis, which is what it’s designed to do. In which case, you might ask whether spending this money at a time when our economy is struggling is the right thing to do. [/quote]

Geographically America =/= France.

Passenger rail does not work as well here. We may be 5 times the population, but we are also 15 times the area. That’s 15 times the cost to build. 15 times the cost to maintain. And a much less efficient system because of lower population density and less centralized travel locations.

You do realize that the auto and air travel industry employ people also right? Unless you are proposing that the addition of rail would lead to a significant increase in travel, you aren’t creating jobs, you’re just shifting them around.

[SkyzykS]

I could see how it could indirectly create jobs in industries as a derivative of the actual work like lumber, steel, specialized manufacturing, and consumables related to all of them, but I agree much more policy wise with Pat. People who get paid to pay attention learned damn well from Exxons quarterly declarations of profit what happens when you make money (and that was during a republican leadership).

There isn’t an idiot in America who understands that their retirement funds, union pension funds, vacation funds, and virtually any money vehicle that they are invested in are largely dependent on the success and profitability of large corporations. So as soon as they declare a profit of $X.00/share, those same numbskulls are crying that it is unfair, and that the Gov. should tax said profitable corporation into the poorhouse.

So now they have democratic leadership who are just dumb enough to do exactly that.

And not to parse words, but this wouldn’t actually be job creation, it would be re-employment until we breach a threshold that was established prior to recession. Then it would be job creating.

[jsbrook]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

“We are going to rebuild 150,000 miles of our roads – that’s enough to circle the world six times. … We’re going to lay and maintain 4,000 miles of our railways – enough to stretch coast-to-coast,” Obama told a labor rally in Milwaukee where several thousand supporters cheered his every line.

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.
[/quote]

Exactly, heres $50 billion for shit we don’t need. Woohoo. Infrastructure spending in a recession is idiotic beyond the pale. Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

Not quite true, I think. Many European countries have a railway and transportation system that makes us look like we’re still in the stone age. America’s passenger train system is pathetic by international standards. Take France for example. FranceÃ?¢??s TGV high-speed trains carried 100 million people in 2008, and the national rail company employs about 200,000 people. France is 1/5th the size of the U.S. in population. By extrapolation, an equivalent American rail network could transport 500 million passengers a year on fast rail and provide jobs for one million people operating trains, maintaining track, and serving customers. I’d expect there to be some sustainable and permanent job creation.

If anything, I see this as a longterm project that will provide needed modernization and increase the number of jobs provided by a particular industry. What I’m less clear on is that it’s going to translate to any appreciable bump in employment on any imminent basis, which is what it’s designed to do. In which case, you might ask whether spending this money at a time when our economy is struggling is the right thing to do. [/quote]

Geographically America =/= France.

Passenger rail does not work as well here. We may be 5 times the population, but we are also 15 times the area. That’s 15 times the cost to build. 15 times the cost to maintain. And a much less efficient system because of lower population density and less centralized travel locations.

You do realize that the auto and air travel industry employ people also right? Unless you are proposing that the addition of rail would lead to a significant increase in travel, you aren’t creating jobs, you’re just shifting them around.[/quote]

Good points. For the reasons, you state, the numbers probably would not shake out like that. It would not work as well here. However, I just got back from vacation in France, and I can tell you that I would be much more inclined to take shorter trips I now might not bother with if we had something similar to the TGV as far as speed and efficiency. It turns an 8 hr drive into less than 3. I still do think railroad modernization would be a good thing for the country AND result in a net increase in jobs. But not necessarily now. And not necessarily like this.

[pat]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

“We are going to rebuild 150,000 miles of our roads – that’s enough to circle the world six times. … We’re going to lay and maintain 4,000 miles of our railways – enough to stretch coast-to-coast,” Obama told a labor rally in Milwaukee where several thousand supporters cheered his every line.

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.
[/quote]

Exactly, heres $50 billion for shit we don’t need. Woohoo. Infrastructure spending in a recession is idiotic beyond the pale. Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

Not quite true, I think. Many European countries have a railway and transportation system that makes us look like we’re still in the stone age. America’s passenger train system is pathetic by international standards. Take France for example. Franceâ??s TGV high-speed trains carried 100 million people in 2008, and the national rail company employs about 200,000 people. France is 1/5th the size of the U.S. in population. By extrapolation, an equivalent American rail network could transport 500 million passengers a year on fast rail and provide jobs for one million people operating trains, maintaining track, and serving customers. I’d expect there to be some sustainable and permanent job creation.

If anything, I see this as a longterm project that will provide needed modernization and increase the number of jobs provided by a particular industry. What I’m less clear on is that it’s going to translate to any appreciable bump in employment on any imminent basis, which is what it’s designed to do. In which case, you might ask whether spending this money at a time when our economy is struggling is the right thing to do. [/quote]

Geographical Europe is about the size of the U.S. Everything is much closer together. We have cars and dick loads of them. I don’t see taking a gamble on funding something that may flop miserably because people still are going to drive their cars.
I used rail in Europe all the time, but it is just set up differently. There is no place to park, everything you need is with in a block of where you live. Everybody lives in the cities, the riff-raff live in the suburbs, etc. I love Europe for what it is, but it is way different than here. What works there is not necessarily or even likely to translate here.

I am for high speed rail, but it is something that needs to be pursued after the recovery not as a means to it. Most public transportation in this country operates in the red. Creating another hole where to throw money just doesn’t sound right…We need to focus on the core basics of economy. This will lead to recovery not taking chances on the fringe of the economy.

[SkyzykS]

The real hidden difficulty in LRT is topography. With the Appalachian chain sitting smack dab in the middle of D.C. to New York, New York to Chicago, Chicago to D.C., etc. there is no way that it can be executed efficiently through the mid-Atlantic region. The track has to be just about dead level to work.

Pittsburgh has been thumping the drum for that for decades. It just isn’t feasible when you have to build 600 ft. high and half mile long spans between valleys every half mile or so, and central Appalachia is much more rugged than here, which is tame compared to the rockies (for trans-continental travel).

[Sifu]

What this shows is the gross incompetence and dishonesty of the Obama administration. When Obama announced the stimulus package last year saying that this was money for projects that he said were “shovel ready” I just assumed that a portion of it was going to go to infrastructure.

It make sense to borrow money to invest in infrastructure because the benefits of good infrastructure last long after the jobs created have gone away. With infrastructure our children, grand children and great grand children who will have to pay back the borrowed money will have something useful to show for their money.

It boggles the mind. We have bridges that have collapsed and killed people. We have others that are on the verge of collapse. We have roadways that are crumbling which is damaging vehicles and causing accidents. Our power grid is cobbled together which wastes a lot of energy. Our sewers need repair. Our water distribution wastes water. Yet after a trillion dollars in stimulus borrowing and spending we have yet to address these issues which affect us and future generations and also affects our economic competitiveness.

The incompetence is staggering. How could they spend over a trillion dollars and not have infrastructure well covered? WTF? Obama is turning out to be so bad that comparing him to Jimmy Carter is an insult to Carter. This November there needs to be a wholesale clearing out of the congress.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]Sifu wrote:

The incompetence is staggering. How could they spend over a trillion dollars and not have infrastructure well covered? WTF? Obama is turning out to be so bad that comparing him to Jimmy Carter is an insult to Carter. This November there needs to be a wholesale clearing out of the congress. [/quote]

Oh I dunno Sifu. On my drive down to Alabama last summer every rest stop between here and there was closed for construction, with big signs proudly proclaiming that it was our stimulus dollars at work!

So think of them next time you have to take a dump on a long road trip. They have it covered. They are thinking of us and our needs.

[MikeyKBiatch]

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

I’d love to see you punch Obama in the face: Obama to Propose Massive Tax Breaks for Businesses to Invest in Growth | Fox News

[hungry4more]

[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

I’d love to see you punch Obama in the face: Obama to Propose Massive Tax Breaks for Businesses to Invest in Growth | Fox News [/quote]

I actually laughed out loud

[Sifu]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

The incompetence is staggering. How could they spend over a trillion dollars and not have infrastructure well covered? WTF? Obama is turning out to be so bad that comparing him to Jimmy Carter is an insult to Carter. This November there needs to be a wholesale clearing out of the congress. [/quote]

Oh I dunno Sifu. On my drive down to Alabama last summer every rest stop between here and there was closed for construction, with big signs proudly proclaiming that it was our stimulus dollars at work!

So think of them next time you have to take a dump on a long road trip. They have it covered. They are thinking of us and our needs.
[/quote]

But if the bridges and roadways are so scary to use that I need to make use of every last one of those rest stops in my travels I am going to wonder why they didn’t allocate funds for the important infrastructure before other stuff. I’m sure that between Mobil, Total, BP, McDonald’s, Bk’s, Walmart etc… One can find rest room facilities along the way.

The level of stupidity combined with leftist ideology is just astounding. They had stimulus money to spend on stupid shit like solar panels for public buildings in Seattle. Even in a sunny area it will take a long time to recover the energy used in manufacturing a solar panel. In Seattle they will never recoup it.

You know why they did it? Because solar is part of their green agenda. However the notion that solar is a green technology is laughable. Burning coal is more green than solar because producing solar panels creates toxic waste. Mother nature can deal with Co2 from coal, she can’t deal with the toxic waste from making solar panels. In China what the solar panel makers do is fill up a tanker truck with toxic solar panel waste and dump the chemicals in some poor peasant village. Eventually it will all wash into the Pacific.

[Sifu]

[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

I’d love to see you punch Obama in the face: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/06/obama-propose-massive-tax-breaks-businesses-invest-growth/[/quote]

AT first glance it’s not a bad idea. However in the long term it will work out very bad for the US. The reason why I believe that, is because this reminds me of an article I read in the Detroit News or Free Press 5-7 years ago. The article discussed the unintended consequences of the quality drives that the Big Three automakers have been engaged in for the last three decades. During that time the Big Three and their parts suppliers have been relentlessly upgrading their manufacturing equipment and replacing “old machines” with state of the art. Just like how this tax break will be used to replace “old machines” with state of the art.

Do you know what happens when Ford or GM replaces all the machines in a factory with new equipment? I’ll give you a hint, they don’t take a 20-30 year old,(1980-1990) era CNC machine or robot down to the scrapper and crush it. If it still works they put it up for sale on the used machinery market, at a good price. They also do this with a 30-40 year old lathe that needs a machinist to operate it but it still produces a quality product.

Companies in India have been buying up these bargain priced used machines from a wholesaler, manning it with cheap labor and going directly into competition with the company in the US that the equipment came from. That is why in recent years the Big Three part suppliers have been losing a lot of business to Indian companies.

So what Obama really is proposing is the American taxpayer is going give $200 billion to underwrite a mass dumping of good equipment onto the used equipment market, so the price of all this equipment is going to plummet. It is going to result in a mass transfer of America’s present manufacturing base to India, China, Russia or anywhere else that has the money to buy it, man it with cheap labor, then use it to go into competition with all the American companies and factories that were supposed to “benefit” from the tax break to replace their equipment.

As bad as Obama has been for America so far, this mass giveaway and transfer of our manufacturing base to our rivals is going to be the really big one. The one decision that in one year will do more to diminish America’s comparative standing than anything else he could accomplish in two terms.

[PAINTRAINDave]

[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

I’d love to see you punch Obama in the face: Obama to Propose Massive Tax Breaks for Businesses to Invest in Growth | Fox News [/quote]

I would, its just those damned secret service people always getting in the way.

But seriously, this tax break is smart and WILL stimulate economic growth. That being said, this is not a permanent tax cut, often called for as a means of stimulus in form of income tax cuts or sales tax cuts, which are poor forms of stimulus without corresponding spending cuts, considering all the ramifications of an increased debt load.

[PAINTRAINDave]

FoxNews wrote: Many said a higher priority for their members remains extension of the Bush income-tax rates for higher earners that are set to expire at the end of 2010. Obama and many congressional Democrats want to let those breaks expire.

From the same article: the big business lobbyists are so worried about their personal income taxes, that they say extending the Bush top earner tax cuts are “higher priority” than a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT tax writeoff on business investments.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

They will be nothing more than more of the same shitty roads, rails, and runways that lead to impoverished and unproductive cities.

Nice.

o_O

[dnlcdstn]

Does anyone else wonder why guys get paid over $20/hr to do road work and other construction? These guys tend to be the same guys blowing money in bars and buying shit they don’t need. I have several friends who do this kinda work and a couple of them didn’t even graduate. My point is lower these wages because there are plenty of people out of work who would do it for less. Some people just get paid too much and we have teachers barely getting by.

[Sifu]

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why guys get paid over $20/hr to do road work and other construction? These guys tend to be the same guys blowing money in bars and buying shit they don’t need. I have several friends who do this kinda work and a couple of them didn’t even graduate. My point is lower these wages because there are plenty of people out of work who would do it for less. Some people just get paid too much and we have teachers barely getting by.[/quote]

Obviously you are not familiar with the concept of danger pay. Construction is not a hazard free profession. On a construction site when something goes wrong and there is an accident people end up maimed, losing limbs, or losing their lives.

So I do not begrudge someone who puts their health and life at risk getting paid a little extra. If they want to go out and live on their free time so be it, they are spreading the wealth.

[jp_dubya]

Obammy is trying to correct his fundamental flaws with the business tax cut, but he’ll revert to the eco-tard.

Infrastructure spending is a good idea, but the waste when you involve the govt doesnt make it worth it.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why guys get paid over $20/hr to do road work and other construction? These guys tend to be the same guys blowing money in bars and buying shit they don’t need. I have several friends who do this kinda work and a couple of them didn’t even graduate. My point is lower these wages because there are plenty of people out of work who would do it for less. Some people just get paid too much and we have teachers barely getting by.[/quote]

Aside from it being none of your business what people spend their money on, that type of work takes some grade A extra large balls and a hell of a lot of skill.

I dare you to go out tomorrow, or when you get some free time and form, pour, and finish a driveway. Or get yourself up on some high steel joining beams.
Get back to us with the results too. I love a good laugh as much as the next guy.

p.s. None of the teachers I know are hurting for anything. They are all making at least 60k, and one is about to break 100 since he finished his masters and is now in admin.

[jp_dubya]

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why guys get paid over $20/hr to do road work and other construction? These guys tend to be the same guys blowing money in bars and buying shit they don’t need. I have several friends who do this kinda work and a couple of them didn’t even graduate. My point is lower these wages because there are plenty of people out of work who would do it for less. Some people just get paid too much and we have teachers barely getting by.[/quote]
But isn’t our economy dependant on frivolous spending? Heck if everyone was responsible in their spending and saving, money wouldn’t get loaned, products wouldn’t get made and marked up, etc, etc.

[dnlcdstn]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why guys get paid over $20/hr to do road work and other construction? These guys tend to be the same guys blowing money in bars and buying shit they don’t need. I have several friends who do this kinda work and a couple of them didn’t even graduate. My point is lower these wages because there are plenty of people out of work who would do it for less. Some people just get paid too much and we have teachers barely getting by.[/quote]

Aside from it being none of your business what people spend their money on, that type of work takes some grade A extra large balls and a hell of a lot of skill.

I dare you to go out tomorrow, or when you get some free time and form, pour, and finish a driveway. Or get yourself up on some high steel joining beams.
Get back to us with the results too. I love a good laugh as much as the next guy.

p.s. None of the teachers I know are hurting for anything. They are all making at least 60k, and one is about to break 100 since he finished his masters and is now in admin.
[/quote]

All through college and a year after I did asphalt and concrete work. In the winter we built garages etc… I got paid a third of what state workers get because I worked for a small family business. I worked harder than the state workers who have 2 people doing what one man does in small businesses.

One friend of mine worked with me in that family business. He left and got in with Kokosing which is a giant in construction. He told me how he worked half as hard and got paid 3 times as much with kick ass insurance. He spends his money at Walmart, on pay per view, and on his quad.

Maybe if you actually had some experience in the construction industry you would have a valid point. Until then don’t talk about people or things you don’t know.