T Nation

The Next 50 Billion

Obama just announced his new plan for the economy. Spend 50 Billion on Roads, Rail and Runways.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39023909/ns/politics-white_house/

Please review the comments and the voting numbers for these comments on the above link. MSNBC comments at that. This Administration just does not get it when it comes to what the people need and want.

Roads, Runways and Railways? These roads and runways are already paid for by state and County TAXES. We already speny billions on roadways and it did NOTHING but put us into debt. Rail is privately owned. The Stimulus creates temporary project jobs for road workers and paving companies. That’s pretty much it. We can only afford to upgrade infrastructure if there is a booming economy that exists to drive the need the upgrade.

Again they have missed the mark in a long list of incompetent back stabbing policies against the American People and our Liberty.

Or have they just played the last card??? The so called democrats are clever. This bill is existing simply to line the pockets of the outgoing democrats. Look for the lame projects and earmarks that have nothing to do with job creating and economy stabalization… They know they are out, and they are going to blatantly rob us before it happens…again. Watch closely.

This isn’t about the economy or jobs at all…again.

Many from the right complained about previous stimulus saying that it wasn’t “Real” and didn’t create jobs, by directly funding infrastructure it creates alot of work, work that is also highly visible to the public. You could argue endlessly about whether or not more stimulus is needed, but I think its a politically brilliant move. The people that are upset by this (or even care) are the same people that would never vote Democrat anyways. $0.02


Agreed. You never know where the chicken is going to land. Creatine tax has to be on the short list, once this fails.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Many from the right complained about previous stimulus saying that it wasn’t “Real” and didn’t create jobs, by directly funding infrastructure it creates alot of work, work that is also highly visible to the public. You could argue endlessly about whether or not more stimulus is needed, but I think its a politically brilliant move. The people that are upset by this (or even care) are the same people that would never vote Democrat anyways. $0.02[/quote]

Not long ago, Obama announced the creation of thousands of jobs, and a turn around in the job situation in America. Want to know what jobs were created? Census workers LOL. So, for 2-6 weeks, he could brag about it, only to fall flat on his face the census bullshit was over.

I think it’s funny when Leftists think that a government can create jobs, unless you want to talk about creating a more business friendly environment (in the sense of lowered taxes and regulation.)

Want to know what happens when a government gets too big for it’s britches?..California. A worthless fucking state legislature who continued to hire in the midst and onset of a recession. Sure, they could brag about more jobs, only to find us in the mess we are in now. The worst business environment in the country, highest taxes in the nation, highest tax bracket kicking in at the lowest gross income (~47k/year). And its all to fund pensions for state workers, not a damn thing else.

Not to worry, in about two months Obama is going to be rewarded for his mishandling of the economy, not to mention everything else he’s touched. The press won’t even be able to save the house or the senate for the democrats. We’ll see how well his leftist tendencies play out for his last two years in office. Will he be a Bill Clinton and move to the center? Or, will he stick to his core values and get nothing done?

I honestly can’t remember the specifics, but there’s this anecdote about Milton Friedman. He journeys out to see a public works project in Sudamerica somewhere whose goal ostensibly is to build a waterway, a canal of some kind. He sees hundreds of men using shovels to move the earth. He turns to his guide and says, ‘sir, why are there no machines, no bulldozers, no cranes doing this digging?’
His guide replies ‘Sir, this is a jobs project.’
Friedman quips, ‘Then why aren’t they using spoons?’

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Not to worry, in about two months Obama is going to be rewarded for his mishandling of the economy, not to mention everything else he’s touched. The press won’t even be able to save the house or the senate for the democrats. We’ll see how well his leftist tendencies play out for his last two years in office. Will he be a Bill Clinton and move to the center? Or, will he stick to his core values and get nothing done?[/quote]

Hard to see him doing anything to piss off his base. And if the GOP is really about limiting government and they start doing massive cuts and restructuring like Roadmap for America, then we will see the president fighting with congress for 2 years.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Not long ago, Obama announced the creation of thousands of jobs, and a turn around in the job situation in America. Want to know what jobs were created? Census workers LOL. So, for 2-6 weeks, he could brag about it, only to fall flat on his face the census bullshit was over.

I think it’s funny when Leftists think that a government can create jobs, unless you want to talk about creating a more business friendly environment (in the sense of lowered taxes and regulation.)

Want to know what happens when a government gets too big for it’s britches?..California. A worthless fucking state legislature who continued to hire in the midst and onset of a recession. Sure, they could brag about more jobs, only to find us in the mess we are in now. The worst business environment in the country, highest taxes in the nation, highest tax bracket kicking in at the lowest gross income (~47k/year). And its all to fund pensions for state workers, not a damn thing else.
[/quote]
X2 WELL SAID!!! heres your trophy…

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.
[/quote]

Exactly, heres $50 billion for shit we don’t need. Woohoo. Infrastructure spending in a recession is idiotic beyond the pale. Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure”

[quote]pat wrote:
Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

OK then, should he create full time jobs within the Government? What would you be saying then? If he did nothing? It seems you will bitch about absolutely everything he does, and bitch about his inaction at the same time.

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

Why, because that would HELP? This has been rehashed a million times, one of the main reasons it’s hard to start and run a small business is because of all the fees and taxes and red tape associated with doing that. If it was made easier for people to run their own businesses, there would be endless opportunities there.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

Why, because that would HELP? This has been rehashed a million times, one of the main reasons it’s hard to start and run a small business is because of all the fees and taxes and red tape associated with doing that. If it was made easier for people to run their own businesses, there would be endless opportunities there. [/quote]

Business Regulation =/= Tax cuts.

I agree that regulation can strangle small business, but alot of that seems stateside rather than Federal.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

OK then, should he create full time jobs within the Government? What would you be saying then? If he did nothing? It seems you will bitch about absolutely everything he does, and bitch about his inaction at the same time.

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

We do not have a revenue problem so much as having a spending problem.

Before you punch anyone in the face, try doing it to yourself first. Where is Print when you need him.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

We do not have a revenue problem so much as having a spending problem.

Before you punch anyone in the face, try doing it to yourself first. Where is Print when you need him. [/quote]

GOOD ONE.

Its just not realistic to cut spending to match revenue. The people that want to do it aren’t in power for a reason, and if they get power they wont cut spending because they realize its political suicide.

And back to the issue: Policy alternatives to Federal stimulus…

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

OK then, should he create full time jobs within the Government? What would you be saying then? If he did nothing? It seems you will bitch about absolutely everything he does, and bitch about his inaction at the same time.

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

Ok, cut taxes…I am waiting.

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

Why, because that would HELP? This has been rehashed a million times, one of the main reasons it’s hard to start and run a small business is because of all the fees and taxes and red tape associated with doing that. If it was made easier for people to run their own businesses, there would be endless opportunities there. [/quote]

Business Regulation =/= Tax cuts.

I agree that regulation can strangle small business, but alot of that seems stateside rather than Federal.[/quote]

Tax cuts AND de-regulation would help. It doesn’t have to be either/or.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

OK then, should he create full time jobs within the Government? What would you be saying then? If he did nothing? It seems you will bitch about absolutely everything he does, and bitch about his inaction at the same time.

Propose a policy alternative, and if you say cut taxes I will quite literally reach through my screen and punch you in the face.[/quote]

We do not have a revenue problem so much as having a spending problem.

Before you punch anyone in the face, try doing it to yourself first. Where is Print when you need him. [/quote]

I always love the â??agree with me or I will do grave bodily harm to you, over the internet.â??

Hereâ??s what obama should do. Increase tariffs on foreign consumer goods, but remove or reduce tariffs on imported raw materials used to make products in America. A 6 month tax moratorium on businesses under one hundred people. A sales tax moratorium on all goods made with in the U.S. borders, by U.S. companies. A 50% tax break on good made with in U.S. borders by foreign companies. A payroll tax break for all companies, not receiving a moratorium and hiring legal residents only.
A six month freeze on all non-essential spending.
These are just some ideas that are far better than obama’s. We need to create a friendly environment for business to thrive. He spent so much time shaking his fist at American business, that everybody is scared shitless to make a move, lest he strong arm them into bankruptcy. Perception means a lot in business and the perception is, obama hates business and wants to hurt them, and nobody wants to take a chance at getting hurt.

I’m skeptical as to how this will translate to actual job increases. Given past effots, seems like it may just be throwing more money down a well with no measurable benefits. However, railway magnates, such as Peter Gertler, are actually saying they would hire hundreds of thousands of people and see this as creating real jobs in construction as well. That’s a good and telling sign. Top econmists, of course, are publicly disagreeing.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

Translates to “I am going to give you 50 billion dollars to vote for me.”.
[/quote]

Exactly, heres $50 billion for shit we don’t need. Woohoo. Infrastructure spending in a recession is idiotic beyond the pale. Infrastructure has zero to negative return on spending. Zero if your are really lucky. What happens when the roads and rails are built? All those poor fuckers are back out of work. He’s creating work, not jobs. Once the work is done, so are the jobs.

Obama’s next book should be called “How to trumpet failure” [/quote]

Not quite true, I think. Many European countries have a railway and transportation system that makes us look like we’re still in the stone age. America’s passenger train system is pathetic by international standards. Take France for example. Franceâ??s TGV high-speed trains carried 100 million people in 2008, and the national rail company employs about 200,000 people. France is 1/5th the size of the U.S. in population. By extrapolation, an equivalent American rail network could transport 500 million passengers a year on fast rail and provide jobs for one million people operating trains, maintaining track, and serving customers. I’d expect there to be some sustainable and permanent job creation.

If anything, I see this as a longterm project that will provide needed modernization and increase the number of jobs provided by a particular industry. What I’m less clear on is that it’s going to translate to any appreciable bump in employment on any imminent basis, which is what it’s designed to do. In which case, you might ask whether spending this money at a time when our economy is struggling is the right thing to do.