T Nation

The Nanny State (and How We Fix That)


#1

It's getting pretty stupid. There are a metric shit ton of "laws". So many, that it's nearly impossible to go about a normal day without breaking SOME law. And every time you do, the Po Po has the obligation to detain, fine and charge you with a "crime".

If you resist, they have the right to use force to impose the will of the state on your sorry ass. If you get killed, then you are just a dumb ass for resisting arrest.

Here's the problem: I don't see EITHER party ever ABOLISHING any laws. The GOP had power not too long ago and look what happened: the fucking PATRIOT act! They expanded government more than the Dems did!

So how does a society go about REDUCING the number of bullshit laws? I mean, I'm all about keeping rape and murder etc... as felonies. But growing the wrong Geranium? Methinks things are a WEE BIT askew...

Most of this shit we didn't vote for and congress didn't specifically vote on, its bureaucratic decisions about fines, crimes and misdemeanors made by unelected government employees.

How do we take our country back?


#2

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How do we take our country back?[/quote]

Revolution?

(I’m being perfectly serious here, btw)

In any case, I think it’s a result of everyone being too afraid and deciding to use the law to stop being afraid.

And so you get idiocies like children getting suspended or expelled for drawing guns or cops shooting children simply because they’re holding something that looks like a gun (without actually confirming that it IS a gun).


#3

I was just mulling over the idea of adjusting the office of the President to be more like SCOTUS. Have three or five executives as opposed to the one. Thoughts?

I’m not sure anything will change, short of a serious upheaval of government, until a legitimate 3rd party emerges and the Congressional HC is completely replaced with term limits established.

We need to end the ability to be a career politician.

I also think states need to push back with significant force.


#4

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How do we take our country back?[/quote]

Revolution?

(I’m being perfectly serious here, btw)

[/quote]

I’ve thought long and hard about that road, trust me. I believe that to be a losing battle, here’s why:

-They already can read all of our email
-They already can listen to our phone calls
-If you are thinking this, you are most likely on a “list” already
-They already have outlawed most “Assault rifles” in many states
-They have already classified conservative groups as a higher threat to the country than terrorist groups.
-They have the ability to classify ANYONE as a terrorist and rendition their ass.
-They will stamp out ANY kind of meaningful resistance before it reaches critical mass.
-Those that resist will most likely be tried as TERRORISTS, and not CITIZENS
-There is a SIGNIFICANT portion of the population that is completely DEPENDENT on the government for their basic sustenance and survival - a revolution would certainly end those welfare checks and pandemonium would ensue.
-Most people are too stupid to do it in an intelligent manner.
-There are too many FUCKING CRAZY right winger groups that would cloud the issue and detract from popular opinion (crazy fundamentalist Christians, Neo Nazis, White supremacists, etc…)

I could keep going. But I think the opportunity for a “revolution” has come and gone. No, we have to do this peacefully and by using what little of the Constitution that we have left.


#5

Let me ask y’all a serious question-

Do you really think this is an issue of politics and ideology, or an issue of humanity as a whole?

I believe it’s an issue with just being human, and no amount of changing who holds power or such will change anything. In fact, I think thinking on the basis of state vs federal power and such just clouds the reality.


#6

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I could keep going. But I think the opportunity for a “revolution” has come and gone. No, we have to do this peacefully and by using what little of the Constitution that we have left.[/quote]

There have been peaceful revolutions before. It’s rare, but not unheard of.


#7

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I was just mulling over the idea of adjusting the office of the President to be more like SCOTUS. Have three or five executives as opposed to the one. Thoughts?

I’m not sure anything will change, short of a serious upheaval of government, until a legitimate 3rd party emerges and the Congressional HC is completely replaced with term limits established.

We need to end the ability to be a career politician.

I also think states need to push back with significant force.

[/quote]

I would LOVE to end career politicians, but none of them will EVER vote for that! I would love it if the States stood up for their rights, but with the Federal Gov’t offering subsidies (paid for by OUR federal taxes), the States won’t cross them.

A third party would be great, but the Left controls the MEDIA and the GOP won’t go without a fight… I think the “third party” would look a lot like us: social libertarian, small government, fiscal conservative…

But as long as special interests and lobbyists control our elected official, NOTHING is going to change…


#8

[quote]magick wrote:
Let me ask y’all a serious question-

Do you really think this is an issue of politics and ideology, or an issue of humanity as a whole?

I believe it’s an issue with just being human, and no amount of changing who holds power or such will change anything. In fact, I think thinking on the basis of state vs federal power and such just clouds the reality.[/quote]

I think the three go hand in hand and it would be very difficult to separate them. I do not; however, think that’s a reason not to try to effect positive change.


#9

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I could keep going. But I think the opportunity for a “revolution” has come and gone. No, we have to do this peacefully and by using what little of the Constitution that we have left.[/quote]

There have been peaceful revolutions before. It’s rare, but not unheard of. [/quote]

The framers of the Constitution have given us ALL of the tools we need to make changes. The problem is that our elected officials ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. They are making back room deals and horse trading while maintaining the illusion of division. In reality, all they want is to control us and keep their advantage (i.e. MONEY, our tax dollars) going to whatever or whoever pays the highest price for their vote.


#10

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I was just mulling over the idea of adjusting the office of the President to be more like SCOTUS. Have three or five executives as opposed to the one. Thoughts?

I’m not sure anything will change, short of a serious upheaval of government, until a legitimate 3rd party emerges and the Congressional HC is completely replaced with term limits established.

We need to end the ability to be a career politician.

I also think states need to push back with significant force.

[/quote]

I would LOVE to end career politicians, but none of them will EVER vote for that! I would love it if the States stood up for their rights, but with the Federal Gov’t offering subsidies (paid for by OUR federal taxes), the States won’t cross them.

A third party would be great, but the Left controls the MEDIA and the GOP won’t go without a fight… I think the “third party” would look a lot like us: social libertarian, small government, fiscal conservative…

But as long as special interests and lobbyists control our elected official, NOTHING is going to change… [/quote]

If enough people get behind the idea of term limits for Congress and, more importantly, we consistently vote out officials that vote against such a measure, it can be done.

I agree about the states. I would like to see states become more fiscally conservative and independent of federal subsidies.

I think a 3rd party can still emerge. When the Republican party was created, from what I understand, it was born from disfranchised WHIG members in both politics and the populace. We certainly have that now with both current parties. I also think the internet is how this new party or parties could get their message out. Youtube is a powerful tool for free speech.

Again, I agree in regards to lobbyists and special interests.


#11

[quote]magick wrote:
Let me ask y’all a serious question-

Do you really think this is an issue of politics and ideology, or an issue of humanity as a whole?

I believe it’s an issue with just being human, and no amount of changing who holds power or such will change anything. In fact, I think thinking on the basis of state vs federal power and such just clouds the reality.[/quote]

I think humanity is capable of both great and terrible things. It really depends upon effective leadership. The fact is that most people are sheep. They really don’t want to think for them selves too much, they just want to go about their lives with out too much hassle. Revolution would be a hassle…


#12

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The framers of the Constitution have given us ALL of the tools we need to make changes. The problem is that our elected officials ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. They are making back room deals and horse trading while maintaining the illusion of division. In reality, all they want is to control us and keep their advantage (i.e. MONEY, our tax dollars) going to whatever or whoever pays the highest price for their vote.[/quote]

If they gave us all the tools necessary, then they would have implemented term limits from the start.


#13

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I think the three go hand in hand and it would be very difficult to separate them. I do not; however, think that’s a reason not to try to effect positive change. [/quote]

Why you think it’ll be a positive change to take power from the hands of the federal government and give it to the states?

What if the state did something that you disagreed with (vehemently)? Would you demand that the power then go from the state to the city you live in?

As for the first sentence- Fair enough. We do all have different beliefs, and obviously this translates directly into our politics and ideologies.

In hindsight my question is too simplistic. I guess a better question would be whether you think the politics and ideologies of today are borne out of a calculated, rational beliefs, or on the basis of a man’s fear and terror of a situation and a desperate attempt to gain control?


#14

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I could keep going. But I think the opportunity for a “revolution” has come and gone. No, we have to do this peacefully and by using what little of the Constitution that we have left.[/quote]

There have been peaceful revolutions before. It’s rare, but not unheard of. [/quote]

The framers of the Constitution have given us ALL of the tools we need to make changes. The problem is that our elected officials ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW. They are making back room deals and horse trading while maintaining the illusion of division. In reality, all they want is to control us and keep their advantage (i.e. MONEY, our tax dollars) going to whatever or whoever pays the highest price for their vote.[/quote]

Ya I hear ya and don’t disagree.


#15

Two things:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
-They already have outlawed most “Assault rifles” in many states[/quote]

This really isn’t that big of a deal. Most of the bans are on cosmetic features, not the actual rifle.

Shit gangbangers can get select fire on the street, we the people can get a couple semi auto AR’s and AK’s.

Compounded by the fact I’m sure there is some wingnut in a basement somewhere who has fabricated the $15 worth of material to convert most AR’s into select fire…

I’m not worried about it.

I dont’ know that I’d call these “right wing”.

Anywho, in order for revolution you’d need a situation like the Bundy Ranch to have actually popped off, and it not have been a tax cheat who was being defended.

The government would have to slaughter a lot of innocent people, and in a way that made even the “I love the democrats” types sit back and say… NO.

That isn’t going to happen. It will be a slow decline. I forget how TTR described it, but something like a frog in a cool pan and slowly turning up the heat.


#16

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
It’s getting pretty stupid. There are a metric shit ton of “laws”. So many, that it’s nearly impossible to go about a normal day without breaking SOME law. And every time you do, the Po Po has the obligation to detain, fine and charge you with a “crime”.

If you resist, they have the right to use force to impose the will of the state on your sorry ass. If you get killed, then you are just a dumb ass for resisting arrest.

Here’s the problem: I don’t see EITHER party ever ABOLISHING any laws. The GOP had power not too long ago and look what happened: the fucking PATRIOT act! They expanded government more than the Dems did!

So how does a society go about REDUCING the number of bullshit laws? I mean, I’m all about keeping rape and murder etc… as felonies. But growing the wrong Geranium? Methinks things are a WEE BIT askew…

Most of this shit we didn’t vote for and congress didn’t specifically vote on, its bureaucratic decisions about fines, crimes and misdemeanors made by unelected government employees.

How do we take our country back?[/quote]

I’m not sure. Positive change will only come about via education, de-funding, and morality. Small acts by many would probably go a long way towards improving things.

I’m a local government employee. I also have a seven-year old daughter(along with two younger children), and when we are out and see people that share my profession, I can ask, “What do you do if those people want to talk to you?” She can tell me that she should ask to speak to us(her parents) and/or a lawyer. At seven, would she do that if put in the situation? I tend to doubt it, but at least she will grow up with the knowledge that she should not necessarily speak to them-she won’t grow up believing that she should always speak to them and that she doesn’t have other options. I have to pay for a parking space when I go to work. I pay a church for a parking space-I pay a bit more than I would if I parked in a city parking garage, but at least I’m putting a bit of money back into private hands.

There is also something to be said for libertarians pursuing some government jobs, in my opinion. The libertarians who believe otherwise are biting off their noses to spite their faces.


#17

[quote]magick wrote:

If they gave us all the tools necessary, then they would have implemented term limits from the start.[/quote]

They did. The Ballot Box.

They never intended for everyone to vote…


#18

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I was just mulling over the idea of adjusting the office of the President to be more like SCOTUS. Have three or five executives as opposed to the one. Thoughts?

I’m not sure anything will change, short of a serious upheaval of government, until a legitimate 3rd party emerges and the Congressional HC is completely replaced with term limits established.

We need to end the ability to be a career politician.

I also think states need to push back with significant force.

[/quote]

I would LOVE to end career politicians, but none of them will EVER vote for that! I would love it if the States stood up for their rights, but with the Federal Gov’t offering subsidies (paid for by OUR federal taxes), the States won’t cross them.

A third party would be great, but the Left controls the MEDIA and the GOP won’t go without a fight… I think the “third party” would look a lot like us: social libertarian, small government, fiscal conservative…

But as long as special interests and lobbyists control our elected official, NOTHING is going to change… [/quote]

If enough people get behind the idea of term limits for Congress and, more importantly, we consistently vote out officials that vote against such a measure, it can be done.

I agree about the states. I would like to see states become more fiscally conservative and independent of federal subsidies.

I think a 3rd party can still emerge. When the Republican party was created, from what I understand, it was born from disfranchised WHIG members in both politics and the populace. We certainly have that now with both current parties. I also think the internet is how this new party or parties could get their message out. Youtube is a powerful tool for free speech.

Again, I agree in regards to lobbyists and special interests. [/quote]

Have you heard of any legitimate party that is starting up? I mean the Tea Party got some traction quickly, but then out grew it’s infrastructure and message - it’s become so convoluted that most people don’t know what it stands for (I would be hard pressed to “define it”).

I agree that internet would make it easier, but the government CONTROLS the internet… So it’s a medium that can be taken away.

I think that there is MUCH discontent out there. But how (who, really) can it be focused to the necessary laser-like precision necessary to carve out a new “territory” within the status quo?

I feel that anyone who starts such a movement will be targeted, publicly shamed/discredited and/or arrested. I think it’s that far gone. I am not very hopeful at all that I will see change within my lifetime.

I think that the most likely chance of change will come from war or economic collapse, not a political revolution or a democratic transition.


#19

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
They did. The Ballot Box.

They never intended for everyone to vote… [/quote]

Blah!

Fuck Jackson! =D


#20

People need to stop looking to politics as the solution to our problems. Politics hasn’t fixed the drug use, poverty, rampant greed, war, or any other problems that have plagued humanity through all time. There wouldn’t be a need for so many Draconian and detailed laws if the moral fabric of society wasn’t so broken. If people would start treating others with love and kindness instead of abusing them in every which way possible there wouldn’t be a need for a law to prevent what wouldn’t happen in the first place.

I am aware this will never happen, so, we will never solve the problem of government always taking more control over peoples lives that always ends in a way unfavorable to most of the population. The end result of electing politicians of low moral standing is exactly what you see before you today.