The Myth: Overtraining or Under Eating?

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that overtraining doesn’t exist and then go to the gym everyday doing the same thing, busting their but, feeling crappy, and making little progress.[/quote]

Who are all these posters that bust their but in the gym (and also eat a ton) that make little progress?

[quote]elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Overtraining is when the body cannot recover enough between workouts and progress stops and regresses. If you are overtrained, no amount of food can fix the problem. You have to back off.[/quote]

qualification: overtraining=nerves cannot recover, not body, as body would likely be confused for muscle. then you’ll have boys running around saying they are sore and can’t work out or they’ll overtrain.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Ive over trained before. You feel depressed and shitty and you just want to workout more, which only makes it worse.

Really? I always lose motivation to train, I don’t get more motivated to train. That’s actually the first symptom that I notice.[/quote]

I wondered about his statement also, but I think I understand what he is saying. There are times after a few months of going overboard lifting and running when I feel drained for a few weeks, and like you I’m not motivated to train, but I think out of habit like westclock implied I just went to the gym and attempted to lifted the same.

Now a little older I have more discipline so may change what exercises I do, but i still can’t stay out of the gym and thats what I think Westclock was talking about…feeling the need to continue the habit…As well as beeing scared of losing everything you just gained.

Overtraining is not necessarily a bad thing. I see natural cycles in peoples energy levels. Why not use your Highs to blasts through your previous self, and your lows to rest? Very few people (Bill Gates, Warren Buffet maybe?) have I seen that have constant high energy levels and good times in their life.

[quote]martin blank wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that overtraining doesn’t exist and then go to the gym everyday doing the same thing, busting their but, feeling crappy, and making little progress.

Who are all these posters that bust their but in the gym (and also eat a ton) that make little progress?

[/quote]

Ask CT!

My perspective is that that is not a simple question as you might think. Eating in itself gives an anabolic strength effect. Studies show that people who just eat their ass off and get fat also get stronger without having to lift at all.

So if you are overeating and training it is possible to overtrain, but not as likely. However, there are those who workout hard that do not want to get fat. They Gain, but at a slower pace. Yet they don’t have to cut later and don’t lose a lot of size at that time either. And again, this is the same approach the CT recommends.

Repeatedly gaining and losing fat is extremely hard on your internal organs.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
martin blank wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that overtraining doesn’t exist and then go to the gym everyday doing the same thing, busting their but, feeling crappy, and making little progress.

Who are all these posters that bust their but in the gym (and also eat a ton) that make little progress?

Ask CT!

My perspective is that that is not a simple question as you might think. Eating in itself gives an anabolic strength effect. Studies show that people who just eat their ass off and get fat also get stronger without having to lift at all.

So if you are overeating and training it is possible to overtrain, but not as likely. However, there are those who workout hard that do not want to get fat. They Gain, but at a slower pace. Yet they don’t have to cut later and don’t lose a lot of size at that time either. And again, this is the same approach the CT recommends.

Repeatedly gaining and losing fat is extremely hard on your internal organs.
[/quote]

While I am not a person that is afraid of gaining fat (I’ve gained 50 pounds and it has been a struggle- none of it is fat as I still look thin) I understand there may be those that are.

That said, the spirit of my post deals with people not progressing when you say they are busting it in the gym and feeling crappy. I just think it’s rare that that happens if someone is eating enough or not sick, etc.

Or, maybe they’re not really working that hard, as someone else said already (I think).

Overtraining possible? Yes. Probable? Not in my experience. Usually it’s undertraining and / or undereating.

[quote]greekdawg wrote:
elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Actually some of my best gains came by squatting 3 to four times a week on shieko program or that Smolov type program.

elano wrote:
Overtraining is when the body cannot recover enough between workouts and progress stops and regresses. If you are overtrained, no amount of food can fix the problem. You have to back off.

I’ve said before and I’ll say it again. Your recovery abilities are NOT finite and can be improved like any othee aspect of training. The body is capable of adaptation.

Lixe X said, most people will never reach overtraining state.

[/quote]

Ummm do you know how to read? Do you do 5x5 on those programs? I squat 3 times a week too and alot of serious trainers do too. Stop nitpicking my posts.

Everybody who trains hard like their supposed to has to deal with overtraining. Its expected at various levels of performance. Do you take time off? Do you back off from volume or intensity? Do you have light days? Variations in exercises or bodypart splits? All those help keep a lifter from overtraining.

You cant go balls to the wall and failure every workout for very long. A beginner can do it, but not for very long. Then a change in programming and more complexity is needed.

I don’t see what the big deal is with you guys. If you don’t think you are capable of overtraining then fine, go do whatever you want, but you are not going to tell me that I can’t overtrain. Don’t try and talk me into wasting valuable workout time.

Instead I’m going to vary my volume and intensity to keep me from reaching that state. Now go on lifting the same weight for another year in overtrain denial.

[quote]elano wrote:
greekdawg wrote:
elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Actually some of my best gains came by squatting 3 to four times a week on shieko program or that Smolov type program.

elano wrote:
Overtraining is when the body cannot recover enough between workouts and progress stops and regresses. If you are overtrained, no amount of food can fix the problem. You have to back off.

I’ve said before and I’ll say it again. Your recovery abilities are NOT finite and can be improved like any othee aspect of training. The body is capable of adaptation.

Lixe X said, most people will never reach overtraining state.

Ummm do you know how to read? Do you do 5x5 on those programs? I squat 3 times a week too and alot of serious trainers do too. Stop nitpicking my posts.

Everybody who trains hard like their supposed to has to deal with overtraining. Its expected at various levels of performance. Do you take time off? Do you back off from volume or intensity? Do you have light days? Variations in exercises or bodypart splits? All those help keep a lifter from overtraining. You cant go balls to the wall and failure every workout for very long. A beginner can do it, but not for very long. Then a change in programming and more complexity is needed.

I don’t see what the big deal is with you guys. If you don’t think you are capable of overtraining then fine, go do whatever you want, but you are not going to tell me that I can’t overtrain. Don’t try and talk me into wasting valuable workout time. Instead I’m going to vary my volume and intensity to keep me from reaching that state. Now go on lifting the same weight for another year in overtrain denial.[/quote]

Douchenugget,

Please tell me your joking right? You’re the one who said “go squat 3 times a week 5x5 and you will overtrain.”

Sorry, but my point 5x5 is a very, very easy program compared to Smolov or other programs where you are squatting 4-5 times a week!

Have you ever done the Smolov squat program? I would say no you haven’t. It’s no cakewalk.

And with regards to your comment about lifting the same weight in a year, call me when you break into the powerlifting USA top 100 champ.

[quote]greekdawg wrote:
elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Actually some of my best gains came by squatting 3 to four times a week on shieko program or that Smolov type program.[/quote]

Smolov is a peaking program which can’t be done forever, and 5x5 has a planned deload.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
greekdawg wrote:
elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Actually some of my best gains came by squatting 3 to four times a week on shieko program or that Smolov type program.

Smolov is a peaking program which can’t be done forever, and 5x5 has a planned deload.

[/quote]

All that’s fine and dandy but my only point was that I don’t agree with vast blanket statements like “go squat 3x week 5x5 and you will overtrain.”

Recovery ability , like anyhting else, can be improved.

We are getting to the point we need to define the condition over training. Not just what it feels like. I know what it means to me and I think most of what is referenced on this site is junk in regards to the subject.

I buy under-eating and I also buy lying about the stupid shit people do with cheat meals, drinking and all the other crap. Over training is very difficult to achieve. It is difficult in endurance athletes much less for bodybuilders.

Of course there’s such a thing as overtraining.

Most people never come close to reaching it.

[quote]elano wrote:
I think overtraining is real. Go squat 3 times a week for 3x5 or 5x5 and you will eventually regress. Thats overtraining. When you start missing reps, its called overreching.

Overtraining is when the body cannot recover enough between workouts and progress stops and regresses. If you are overtrained, no amount of food can fix the problem. You have to back off.[/quote]

QFT, I was squatting 4x5 3 times a week and wound up leaving that HST cycle at week 6. Hips tightened/got injured, sleep quality declined, no gains to be seen. I was pulling in 5-6k clean cals per day so I can be an example.

Undereating doesn’t equal over training.

Over training is real but so hard to reach. A lot of the backlash against the idea of overtraining has been brought on by the vast number of newbs to lifting who use overtraining as an excuse to stop squating when they feel sick or to miss a day at the gym when they’re a bit tired.
I certainly think it’s true that about 90% of people who think they’re overtraining on forums could solve their problems by getting a little more sleep and eating better/more

[quote]martin blank wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
martin blank wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
A lot of people on this forum seem to think that overtraining doesn’t exist and then go to the gym everyday doing the same thing, busting their but, feeling crappy, and making little progress.

Who are all these posters that bust their but in the gym (and also eat a ton) that make little progress?

Ask CT!

My perspective is that that is not a simple question as you might think. Eating in itself gives an anabolic strength effect. Studies show that people who just eat their ass off and get fat also get stronger without having to lift at all.

So if you are overeating and training it is possible to overtrain, but not as likely. However, there are those who workout hard that do not want to get fat. They Gain, but at a slower pace. Yet they don’t have to cut later and don’t lose a lot of size at that time either. And again, this is the same approach the CT recommends.

Repeatedly gaining and losing fat is extremely hard on your internal organs.

While I am not a person that is afraid of gaining fat (I’ve gained 50 pounds and it has been a struggle- none of it is fat as I still look thin) I understand there may be those that are.

That said, the spirit of my post deals with people not progressing when you say they are busting it in the gym and feeling crappy. I just think it’s rare that that happens if someone is eating enough or not sick, etc.

Or, maybe they’re not really working that hard, as someone else said already (I think).

Overtraining possible? Yes. Probable? Not in my experience. Usually it’s undertraining and / or undereating.

[/quote]

I’m sure that is the case for some. But I have also talked with a few guys who train hard to the point of getting sick (cold, flue, etc). But I do agree that some of that could be fixed by eating more.

Ps �?? 50lbs of non-fat weight gain it amazing!

[quote]Lorisco wrote:Ps �?? 50lbs of non-fat weight gain it amazing!
[/quote]

Thanks. That just shows how skinny I was (and still am - I’m 6-5)

That’s also why these type threads are the ones I predominantly chime in on. If I can get one skinny guy to NOT do what I did and cost themselves years of growth by undereating and falling for lifting once every 8 days or TBT, then well, I’ll be happy.

[quote]greekdawg wrote:

Douchenugget,

Please tell me your joking right? You’re the one who said “go squat 3 times a week 5x5 and you will overtrain.”

Sorry, but my point 5x5 is a very, very easy program compared to Smolov or other programs where you are squatting 4-5 times a week!

Have you ever done the Smolov squat program? I would say no you haven’t. It’s no cakewalk.

And with regards to your comment about lifting the same weight in a year, call me when you break into the powerlifting USA top 100 champ.
[/quote]

No I havn’t tried a Smolov squat program.

I might not ever make it to a 600 or 700lb deadlift but I sure as hell am going to try. If I do ever make it in the top100, ill PM you for that # :wink:

I understand your point that recovery ability does increase and I agree with that. My point however when I said “Go squat 3x a week for 5x5 and you will overtrain” was simply to imply that the program does not work forever.

There is the possibility that you have freakish recovery ability and that on a 5x5 program, you will not be able to stress yourself enough, but for most average people they will overtrain before that happens. I am not questioning your knowledge on training. I have personally overtrained before so I know its real. Just saying.

[quote]elano wrote:
greekdawg wrote:

Douchenugget,

Please tell me your joking right? You’re the one who said “go squat 3 times a week 5x5 and you will overtrain.”

Sorry, but my point 5x5 is a very, very easy program compared to Smolov or other programs where you are squatting 4-5 times a week!

Have you ever done the Smolov squat program? I would say no you haven’t. It’s no cakewalk.

And with regards to your comment about lifting the same weight in a year, call me when you break into the powerlifting USA top 100 champ.

No I havn’t tried a Smolov squat program.

I might not ever make it to a 600 or 700lb deadlift but I sure as hell am going to try. If I do ever make it in the top100, ill PM you for that # :wink:

I understand your point that recovery ability does increase and I agree with that. My point however when I said “Go squat 3x a week for 5x5 and you will overtrain” was simply to imply that the program does not work forever.

There is the possibility that you have freakish recovery ability and that on a 5x5 program, you will not be able to stress yourself enough, but for most average people they will overtrain before that happens. I am not questioning your knowledge on training. I have personally overtrained before so I know its real. Just saying.[/quote]

Alright I’ll give you that. I’m not trying to harp on you, it’s just that my point is I want people to realize that recovery abilities and ability to handle higher volume/frequency can be vastly improved just like strength, speed, endurance, etc. Nthing is set in stone.