The More 'Moderate' Islam

Inner Hulk…

[quote]Deus vult wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Yup, killing people is a strictly Islamic deal.

Andrea Yates drowns here children- BBC News | AMERICAS | US mother drowns all children in bath

Man kills family on lunch break- http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=51997

Gunmen kill teen and mother- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316549,00.html

60 year old woman shoots deputy- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316547,00.html

WAIT! How could this be??? None of those people were muslim. I’m so confused!

Seriously, you’re grasping at fucking straws. I realize why you posted this though, there’s a huge fucking
ink/graphic for this story on the front page of FauxNews.com. Figures.

HEY WAIT !!

In the abovementioned cases none of the perpetrators did it becuause their religion told them to do it !!!

[/quote]
Quote the Quran where it says to strangle your daughter to death if she refuses to wear a Hijab. Douche.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
None of these killings had anything to do with religion. The muslim woman was killed because she wouldn’t wear a head cover. Show me a Catholic who killed a girl because she wouldn’t wear a rosary; maybe I can see a connection and believe you.

The man obviously had psychological problems just as did the people I listed, his religion didn’t do it. To suggest otherwise is fucking asinine as hell.

People snap. It happens. Regardless of race, age, religion, etc. This thread is so fucking stupid.

So why participate in it?[/quote]

Someone should be pointing out the absurdity of this putrid shit. Muslim leaders denounced the murder but I see no mention of that in this thread. Because all Muslims are Caaaraaaazzyyyyy! And only Muslims. Every other religion is full of sane, calm, loving individuals.

I really worry about some of you guys. How are you able to hide your prejudice day to day?

Can anyone explain to me where does it say that a good Muslim should kill his daughter if she refuses to wear a headscarf?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Islam 2000 = Christianity 1500[/quote]

Actually, it’s the other way round:

Islam’s 1421 = Christianity’s 2000

I think what he means is Islam in the year 2000 is equal to Christianity around the year 1500, (you know, the inquisition, burning witches and all).

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
None of these killings had anything to do with religion. The muslim woman was killed because she wouldn’t wear a head cover. Show me a Catholic who killed a girl because she wouldn’t wear a rosary; maybe I can see a connection and believe you.

The man obviously had psychological problems just as did the people I listed, his religion didn’t do it. To suggest otherwise is fucking asinine as hell.

People snap. It happens. Regardless of race, age, religion, etc. This thread is so fucking stupid.

So why participate in it?

Someone should be pointing out the absurdity of this putrid shit.
[/quote]
Precisely why I posted this. To point out the absurdity of the behaviour of the practitioners of islam all over the world. It not hidden it the backwoods of Iraq but it is everywhere where they are. That it creeps into our world. Somewhere along the way, somebody within islam spread the doctrine that murder is a way to solve problems. This philosphy is embraced by mulsims around the world; not just in the Middle East or North Africa.

Good, they fucking should. And they don’t condemn enough of the violence perpetrated around the world.

Hey, don’t worry atheists still whole the world record for wholesale murder and every other kind of atrocity. So I wouldn’t go sucking my own dick about how morally superior non-believers are and how morally depraved believers are. Non-believers have done the worst of anybody so far. I do not think anybody will ever top them.

[quote]
I really worry about some of you guys. How are you able to hide your prejudice day to day?[/quote]
Appreciate your concern, pray for me will ya? I didn’t notice anybody hiding anything. Sure I look at muslims as a whole with a weary eye. To many of them want me to die for me to just let it slide. I never mistreat, but I am skeptical. These events don’t exist in a vacuum. They are related. The mania that drove this particular asshole to kill his own child is the same as the mania that drives the suicide bombers, the homicide bombers, the abuse of women, etc. that is shared in the greater islamic community. It is woven of the same fiber and is in our own back yard.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Precisely why I posted this. To point out the absurdity of the behaviour of the practitioners of islam all over the world. [/quote]

Look at the title you picked for the thread. Look at the first sentence you wrote.

Surely, you could have gotten your point across in a way that doesn’t make you look like a bigoted jackass.

You do realize that Humans of every color, faith, and ethnicity have been using that doctrine since the dawn of time, and it is not going away anytime soon. Trying to portray it as a trait “within islam” is disingenuous.

Are you resorting to obscenity because you’re pissed at InnerHulk slamming your house of cards?

Do you have in mind any particular event (besides the sempiternal Occupied Territories issue) that you don’t feel was condemned enough? Let me know. I’ll be glad to condemn it as much as you like.

Not true. Religion and nationalism have shed many many times more blood that atheism.

You inferred all that from InnerHulk’s sentence? Let me post the passage you quoted : “And only Muslims. Every other religion is full of sane, calm, loving individuals.”

Listen here Pat, I’m a believer myself but there’s no way you can sell this argument to anyone with brains.

I recommend Visine ™.

Nobody’s asking you to let anything slide. Judging from PMs here, many of “you” want me to die too.

Keep your guard up, and don’t let anyone lay a hand on you. But don’t go around judging people by their faith, race or sex. That makes YOU the bad guy.

You are not bitching for the sake of bitching, now are you? If so, then what do you suggest? Lining up Muslims that live in your “own back yard” and shooting them? Throwing them in the sea? Expanding Gitmo?

I’m curious.

It’s always funny when the terrified(but chest thumping) and ignorant Bushite goes about spewing the same radical extremism that Muslim terrorists do, just on the other side.

Muslims are bad.
Muslims’ culture is bad.
Muslims are insane.
Muslims need to be done away with.
Kill the Muslims!

Wait a sec! That sounds like, oh, you guessed it-radicalism!

Let’s flip that around for a moment…

Americans are bad.
America’s culture is bad.
Americans are insane.
Americans need to be done away with.
Kill the Americans!

It’s funny that these imbeciles can’t recognize they share the same thought process as Muslim extremists.

Pat, and more than a few others in this forum would make great candidates for American Al Qaeda.

Again, you can blame Islam for this man’s murder. But then where do you lay the blame for all of the murders in the United States? Our culture? Our way of life? Christianity?

The US has a higher murder rate than Pakistan, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria, Iran, etc.

Ooooooh

[quote]lixy wrote:

Listen here Pat, I’m a believer myself but there’s no way you can sell this argument to anyone with brains. [/quote]

Representing people with brains is a position you are unqualified for, so stand down.

But to answer your question: Communism, which adhered to a rejection of religion and assured a faithless heaven on earth by the unique avenue of slaughtering 100 million people.

Why is it one can critizise the policies of the US goverment until the cows come home, but when one make a critical remark against your religion, you go apeshit?

How does the title come across as bigoted? Is there such a thing as moderate Islam? When you constantly hear of so-called moderates preaching radical sermons?

If there are more “moderate” muslims than the radical ones, maybe the “moderate” ones should do something to stop the radical ones who are giving your religion a bad name.

You can condemn the radicals all you want, until a grassroots movement against radicalism arises, people will continue to believe what you consider a bigoted belief.

As far as any PM’s go, I never got any, never sent any.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Precisely why I posted this. To point out the absurdity of the behaviour of the practitioners of islam all over the world. It not hidden it the backwoods of Iraq but it is everywhere where they are. That it creeps into our world. Somewhere along the way, somebody within islam spread the doctrine that murder is a way to solve problems. This philosphy is embraced by mulsims around the world; not just in the Middle East or North Africa.
[/quote]

If you analyze what you said you will see that your argument falls apart. It’s an emotional burst and thats okay. There are many reasons why I’m wary of muslim culture, but they have no priviledge in domestic violence with stupid pretexts. We christians are doing just fine in that field. The perpetrator, christian or muslim, don’t need your justification. Has anybody killed their family members in your state lately? Did they have valid reasons?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Representing people with brains is a position you are unqualified for, so stand down. [/quote]

Here we go again; TB’s famous ad hominems.

Look here, you don’t need to agree with everything I say, but saying that I don’t have brains is a hard one to pull. I hold two masters in electrical engineering and working my way towards a Ph.D. It doesn’t make me smarter than you or anyone else, but most people would put me in the category of people with brains.

What question?

If you’re trying to support Pat’s claim that “non-believers” hold the world records for murder, then I’m afraid you won’t find much in history books to support it. There aren’t many things wars were waged for. In no particular order, they would include land, riches, religion, race, and let’s not forget “civilizing the savages” and “spreading freedom”. Atheism or lack of religion is simply not among those. Religion has been responsible for some of the most horrible things known to men. Nobody who knows his/her history can argue against that. It’s not about point of view or opinion; it’s a fact. Believers have done a lot worse in the name of their religion than non-believers have done in the name of their non-religion. Why you felt the need to embarrass yourself by supporting Pat on this one is a mystery.

P.S: Where did you pull the 100 million figure from?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Why is it one can critizise the policies of the US goverment until the cows come home, but when one make a critical remark against your religion, you go apeshit? [/quote]

I welcome criticism of my religion. It’s a healthy thing to do. However, I do have trouble with painting people with the same big brush. In case you haven’t noticed, that is what Ben-Laden does to justify killing innocent Americans, and that is why Jews got harassed, persecuted, and slaughtered throughout the ages.

You can’t be serious! If a man voluntarily killing his daughter not the definition of radicalism (in every sense of the term) I don’t know what is.

If the thread was about “so-called moderates preaching radical sermons” then it would be a totally different story… Perhaps you care to share that one with us. Who do you have in mind? Who calls them moderates? And what radical sermons are they preaching?

Radicals are a minority, almost by definition.

As to the moderate needing to do something, well, I don’t see how my Muslims pals in Canada could have prevented the tragic incident. Short of preemptively killing or kidnapping the infanticidal man, or kidnapping the daughter for “her own good”, there is little they could have done. Plus, how were they to know the man mistreated his daughter and intended to kill her?

Muslims don’t have capes or superpowers.

There are plenty of such grassroots movements, but I fail to see how they could have done anything to prevent the OP’s story.

You are correct, probably not much they could do to stop the incident in the OP’s story, but I was speaking of radical Islam in general.

as far as “moderate” muslims having links to radicals, read this:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
You are correct, probably not much they could do to stop the incident in the OP’s story, but I was speaking of radical Islam in general. [/quote]

That’s the problem right there: Generalization.

[quote]as far as “moderate” muslims having links to radicals, read this:

[/quote]

Elaborate on that if possible.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Here we go again; TB’s famous ad hominems.[/quote]

Let’s see - you say Pat has made a point that no person with brains would agree with, and yet, you don’t chastise yourself for an ad hominem.

I counter the point - and then you start the whining?

Most people? Given your history of being completely irrational in the most basic debate?

Oh, and you can leave the resume-peddling behind - you are measure by what you type here, and in your case, bad news.

[quote]What question?

If you’re trying to support Pat’s claim that “non-believers” hold the world records for murder, then I’m afraid you won’t find much in history books to support it.[/quote]

Well, for it to hold a “world record”, it would need to be supported by recorded history. So, to the next part:

Quite odd that you neglect ideological domination as a reason to wage war, since the 20th century - our most recent and obvious history - was nothing but a shedding of blood over ideology.

Back to that “brains” thing again - although, I suspect your omission was intentional, since as a radical left-winger, it pains you to see the shame of your ideology’s body count.

That said, Communism decreed that people were “oppressed” by religion (among other things) and the idea that there was a paradise in afterlife was merely a ruse to keep people from “freeing their minds” and creating the atheistic Workers’ Paradise on earth. So, communist radicals slaughtered millions in the name of ideological domination - and religion was a primary enemy to be snuffed out on the path to domination.

And some of the best things known to Man - that is the unchanging Nature of Man. No matter the institution, Man’s fallibility has proven that the best we can hope for is a mixed performance that leans toward the Good.

Lixy, you have proven over and over you know jack about history. No one is arguing that religion hasn’t produced wars - but is being refuted is your moronic claim that “non-believers ain’t never caused no wars”. Hogwash.

Hilarious - we have the 20th century to review, and you make this claim.

And you want me to think you have “brains”? Your limitations defy explanation.

Pat is easy to support on this claim - that is, if you know anything about Communism. Non-believers have run gulags and tortured innocents, subjugated populations and created totalitarian regimes on several fronts (Soviet Union, China, and the lessers) - they have blood on their hands all the same.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Let’s see - you say Pat has made a point that no person with brains would agree with, and yet, you don’t chastise yourself for an ad hominem. [/quote]

I said that nobody with brains would buy it. I was questioning his intellectual honesty on that point.

I didn’t whine. I pointed out the obvious; you almost always throw ad hominems in your posts.

[quote]Most people? Given your history of being completely irrational in the most basic debate?

Oh, and you can leave the resume-peddling behind - you are measure by what you type here, and in your case, bad news. [/quote]

More of the same…

Good one! But if you need to resort to such semantics, there must be a tacit admission somewhere…

The 20th century is just that: a century. In other words, a fraction of human history.

As far as ideology is concerned, I don’t think that’s why people were murdered and wars waged last century. It was mainly about land, riches, and markets.

???

My ideology? You must be confusing me with somebody else.

How original! And there I thought that it was as old as religion itself…

It’s not like any of the religious leaders have oppressed (and are still oppressing) people.

No argument here.

Where on earth did I say that “non-believers ain’t never caused no wars”? I said that believers caused more deaths, pain, and suffering in the name of their beliefs than non-believers in the name of theirs.

I couldn’t have made it clearer. Pat claimed Atheists murdered more people than believers and I wrote (direct quote): “Listen here Pat, I’m a believer myself but there’s no way you can sell this argument to anyone with brains.”

When you’re done putting words in my mouth, maybe we can have a real discussion.

You do realize that the majority of people are believers, don’t you?

It’s was not about whether they had “blood on their hands all the same” but rather about who “have done the worst of anybody so far”. Read Pat’s post for Heaven’s sake.

I think we are seeing a confusion of Arab culture with the muslim religion on this thread. It is very common mistake that americans make, myself included. I’ve been doing quite a bit of studying to prepare to deploy to the middle east, and what I have found is that Arab culture often conflicts with Islam, and when it does culture usually wins out.
Islam doesn’t advocate treating women as 2nd class citizens, culture does. We can’t lay the death of this girl on Islam, but on the culture of the arabian penninsula that is rooted in the pre-Islamic Bedouin tribal belief system.
I haven’t followed up on this case, but I imagine that the father percieved his daughter was involved in some sort of extra-marital activity. In the Arab culture, that is a discrace to the girl’s entire family. The sexual purity of a woman is a family matter, the punishment for an indescretion is usually death. A woman’s sexual virtue is referred to as the “ird” and it is guarded by her family to the death. It is better to kill the girl than to see the family lose face.
Although Arab muslims (there are arab non-muslims such as the Copts in Egypt) see women as inferior due to thier culture you can find a difference in India where muslim women are not as repressed. We are wrong if we lay the blame of this murder strictly on religion.

[quote]BH6 wrote:

[/quote]

Pakistanis are not Arabs.