Just wondering how liver values/hepatoxicity works? Is it that whenever you take oral steroids/17 alpha alkylated steroids your liver is poisoned, and then after you stop, it goes back to normal? or does your live just die more and more each time you use orals,until one day it just fails?
C1ipse
There is an article floating around somewhere on oral steroids and the over blown hype about how bad they are. More people end up in the hsopital from abuse of advil/alcohol than oral steroids. A nurse I know told me about a 25 year old female paitent that had to go on the liver transplant list from advil abuse.
I have eiminated my use of any OTC pain relivers and alcohol when using orals. I only use them for 10-14 days to kick off a cycle of long ester oils.
The effects of oral AAS you listed were pretty surprising at first until you said that it was over the course of 15 yrs with such long cycles. Are those effects and mechanisms similar with alcohol?
C1ipse
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Incidentally, did you know that if you donated 1/2 your liver to someone, within 3-6 moinths, it would have regenerated to full size and function… At least, thats what I’ve read. Some of the medics etc will know more.[/quote]
That is interesting, how the hell do you donate HALF your liver though?
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Hahaha, well I dunno the exact surgical proceedure obviously, but it’s not uncommon. The liver has 4 lobes though, so perhaps that indicates some sort of demarcation for transplant? In fact I saw a program where 1 liver saved the lives of 3 people. [/quote]
But surely in those cases there would be reduced functionality of the liver? I gotta google this for some research.
In the meantime, anyone who’s destroyed their liver with drugs/alcohol or steroid misuse, I’ll be willing to sell 1/4 of mine to you - I’m obviously looking for new ways to make money!
hmm…interesting…does that mean both the part that was cut off and the original will regenerate back to full functionality? if it did that would be a good example to show the resilience of the liver.
C1ipse
I have believed for a long time that the efects of AAS (oral) on the liver are often exaggerated but latley I have been thinking about it a little bit more.
I’m a member of another board and a number of well known members there have posted their experiences of VERY serious liver problems resulting from AAS use.
I dont think these guys dosages were crazy or anything…I know one of the guys was using moderate doses as he posted his exact cycle history…he also never abused orals and actually only rarely used them. Although it would be difficult to pin down the liver problems to any one AAS, there was a lot of talk about Tren being the culprit as this was one thing that the guys has in common…they used tren for extended periods. would make one think about whether tren could be having an effect on the liver other than the manner that BBB just explained??
No idea myself, and I dont think anyone else knows either…but it was jsut something I was thinking about.
These guys’ liver issues also went completely unnoticed and problems were not apparent with bloodwork.
sorry…just read over my post and it sounds extremely random…LOL.
[quote]CELTIC-DEVIL wrote:
I have believed for a long time that the efects of AAS (oral) on the liver are often exaggerated but latley I have been thinking about it a little bit more.
I’m a member of another board and a number of well known members there have posted their experiences of VERY serious liver problems resulting from AAS use.
I dont think these guys dosages were crazy or anything…I know one of the guys was using moderate doses as he posted his exact cycle history…he also never abused orals and actually only rarely used them. Although it would be difficult to pin down the liver problems to any one AAS, there was a lot of talk about Tren being the culprit as this was one thing that the guys has in common…they used tren for extended periods. would make one think about whether tren could be having an effect on the liver other than the manner that BBB just explained??
No idea myself, and I dont think anyone else knows either…but it was jsut something I was thinking about.
These guys’ liver issues also went completely unnoticed and problems were not apparent with bloodwork.
sorry…just read over my post and it sounds extremely random…LOL.[/quote]
I myself though that the dangers of orals were overhyped then some of the stories at Promuscle started coming out and made me rethink oral usage altogether.
Bushy,
Just a thought after reading the first couple sentences of your first post, ethyl and methyl are both forms of alcohol. Maybe it something with that.
Interesting info bushy, thanks.
Personally, I’ve stayed away from winny (although I have used it in the past) because of the joint and blood lipid effects. Never really did much for me anyway…
Kind of off topic but I also did a var only cycle recently, mostly out of curiosity…60mg per day for 7 weeks. In know var is supposedly mild in terms of sides but by the 6th or 7th week my urine was definitly darker…I also sometimes noticed a “tender” feeling right about where my liver was located. No dull ache as such, or pain of any sort. More of a sensation.But I have exerienced this very same feling on 50mg Dbol per day. I got it only sometimes, when I was walking at a brisk pace.
Decided to end the cycle at that point and loaded up on antioxidants. Wasnt really worried about liver damage, but I wanted to err on the side of caution.
Cool thread.
Now you’re onto something, bushy. As you surmised from wikipedia, alkyl groups are simply carbon and hydrogen groups - but this free radical business is an AWESOME point.
Alkyl groups create massively reactive free radicals because carbon is not electronegative enough to support being charged ie, possessing a charge because its contains less than four bonds or an extra lone electron. CH3 with a lone electron is gonna immediately bombard something and steal an electron to become something stable, which would create another free radical somewhere, and so on, and so forth… =)
Antioxidants to the rescue, supplying the needed electron to the group so that it doesn’t have to come from cell membranes and other bodily features.