The Lincoln Cult

I thought I’d take a quick look at wiki about this Clement Vallandigham. I’m not one to really rely on Wiki, but, hey, sometimes it gives a decent overview. Anyways, I wanted to praise Clement for his willingness to go the extra mile as a defense attorney. This is the sort of advocate that would sacrifice everything, and I mean everything, to prove his client’s innocence…

He died, aged 50, in Lebanon, Ohio, after accidentally shooting himself with a pistol. At the time, Vallandigham was representing Thomas McGehan, a defendant in a murder case, accused of killing a man, Tom Myers, during a barroom brawl. He was attempting to prove the victim had in fact killed himself while attempting to draw his pistol from a pocket while rising from a kneeling position. While conferring with fellow defense attorneys in his hotel room, Vallandigham decided to show them how he would demonstrate his theory to the jury the following day. Grabbing a pistol he believed to be unloaded, he proceeded to put it in his pocket and mimic the sequence of events as he imagined them to have happened, shooting himself in the process. The defendant, Thomas McGehan, was subsequently acquitted and released from custody. His last words expressed his faith in “that good old Presbyterian doctrine of predestination.” He is buried in Woodland Cemetery, Dayton, Ohio.

Lincoln called Frederick Douglass to the White House in 1864 during the blackest days of the war. Lincoln feared the Union was about to lose the war and they would be forced to sue for peace – with slavery intact. Lincoln wanted Douglass to look into the feasibility of sneaking as many slaves north as possible before that happened. That tells me all I need to know about his personal feeling about free blacks migrating north. His feelings as a statesman over the years are far more complicated.

“There is a very great aversion in the West – I know it to be so in my state – against having free negros come among us. Our people want nothing to do with the negro.” - Senator Lyman Trumbull, Illinois.

Most Northerners disapproved of slavery, but probably nine out of ten also had no use for ex-slaves who would move north and compete for jobs.

These were the political eggshells Lincoln found himself walking on. He told Charles Sumner, the most militant abolitionist in government, that he was “just 60 days behind you” on race. Sumner, senator from the one state in the nation where blacks were treated almost as well as whites, could be radical. Lincoln, president of an extremely racist nation, could not.

He moved slowly and deliberately and changed people’s minds through his speeches and writings. Colonization was a dead end and the antislavery Republicans knew it. The costs were astronomical and Lincoln and most other anti-slavery politicians insisted it be voluntary. Most blacks didn’t want to relocate.

But it served its purpose. It softened the blow of Emancipation for Americans afraid of an influx of blacks moving into their state and competing for jobs. People sometimes forget the Emancipation Proclamation was the most unpopular act of Lincoln’s presidency in the North. The Republican party got hit hard in the mid-term elections because of Emancipation and Lincoln didn’t expect to be re-elected and was surprised when he was.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Oh, Orion. And you were doing so well until some folks who actually know what they are talking about showed up…

[/quote]

Oh Chushin, you never are one of these people…

[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
Lincoln called Frederick Douglass to the White House in 1864 during the blackest days of the war. Lincoln feared the Union was about to lose the war and they would be forced to sue for peace – with slavery intact. Lincoln wanted Douglass to look into the feasibility of sneaking as many slaves north as possible before that happened. That tells me all I need to know about his personal feeling about free blacks migrating north. His feelings as a statesman over the years are far more complicated.

“There is a very great aversion in the West – I know it to be so in my state – against having free negros come among us. Our people want nothing to do with the negro.” - Senator Lyman Trumbull, Illinois.

Most Northerners disapproved of slavery, but probably nine out of ten also had no use for ex-slaves who would move north and compete for jobs.

These were the political eggshells Lincoln found himself walking on. He told Charles Sumner, the most militant abolitionist in government, that he was “just 60 days behind you” on race. Sumner, senator from the one state in the nation where blacks were treated almost as well as whites, could be radical. Lincoln, president of an extremely racist nation, could not.

He moved slowly and deliberately and changed people’s minds through his speeches and writings. Colonization was a dead end and the antislavery Republicans knew it. The costs were astronomical and Lincoln and most other anti-slavery politicians insisted it be voluntary. Most blacks didn’t want to relocate.

But it served its purpose. It softened the blow of Emancipation for Americans afraid of an influx of blacks moving into their state and competing for jobs. People sometimes forget the Emancipation Proclamation was the most unpopular act of Lincoln’s presidency in the North. The Republican party got hit hard in the mid-term elections because of Emancipation and Lincoln didn’t expect to be re-elected and was surprised when he was. [/quote]

The main thrust of your argument seems to be that Lincoln needed
the Union to abolish slavery.

Am I correct?

[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
Lincoln called Frederick Douglass to the White House in 1864 during the blackest days of the war. Lincoln feared the Union was about to lose the war and they would be forced to sue for peace – with slavery intact. Lincoln wanted Douglass to look into the feasibility of sneaking as many slaves north as possible before that happened. That tells me all I need to know about his personal feeling about free blacks migrating north. His feelings as a statesman over the years are far more complicated.

“There is a very great aversion in the West – I know it to be so in my state – against having free negros come among us. Our people want nothing to do with the negro.” - Senator Lyman Trumbull, Illinois.

Most Northerners disapproved of slavery, but probably nine out of ten also had no use for ex-slaves who would move north and compete for jobs.

These were the political eggshells Lincoln found himself walking on. He told Charles Sumner, the most militant abolitionist in government, that he was “just 60 days behind you” on race. Sumner, senator from the one state in the nation where blacks were treated almost as well as whites, could be radical. Lincoln, president of an extremely racist nation, could not.

He moved slowly and deliberately and changed people’s minds through his speeches and writings. Colonization was a dead end and the antislavery Republicans knew it. The costs were astronomical and Lincoln and most other anti-slavery politicians insisted it be voluntary. Most blacks didn’t want to relocate.

But it served its purpose. It softened the blow of Emancipation for Americans afraid of an influx of blacks moving into their state and competing for jobs. People sometimes forget the Emancipation Proclamation was the most unpopular act of Lincoln’s presidency in the North. The Republican party got hit hard in the mid-term elections because of Emancipation and Lincoln didn’t expect to be re-elected and was surprised when he was. [/quote]

If Lincoln was an abolitionist, he had to keep it well-hidden for the reasons you pointed out.

Did Lincoln ever buy real estate in Council Bluffs, Iowa, for when the transcontinental train went through?

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Chushin wrote:

Oh, Orion. And you were doing so well until some folks who actually know what they are talking about showed up…

Oh Chushin, you never are one of these people…

Ha ha! C’mon, that’s the most predictable response you could have possibly made! Surely a superior Austrian such as yourself can do better, no?

“Never” is an awfully big word there, Adolph. But even if you’re correct, it’s ok with me. You see, I don’t suffer from your, well, insufferable arrogance. I don’t act like a know-it-all, and then get my ass handed to me gift-wrapped several times. (Isn’t that T-bolt a swell guy?) I’m not a pompous ass like you are.

In any case, my owned little friend, you still got whipped like an ugly step-child (and it was real fun watching).[/quote]

I do not know where I got “whipped” unless it is part of little homoerotic fantasies in your head.

I claimed that the Lincoln myth is like a religion in that it is hardly altered by facts.

Some reactions of the true believers are a testament to this.

Jack Dempsey gave the only reply worth an answer citing other sources that say that wile, maybe, he swore like a gangster rapper he really did not mean it and was relatively non-racist for his day and age.

That still does not answer why Lincoln, who in the case of Texas and Mexico was very pro-secession and the whole natural rights shebang became a strict Unionist later and which Lincoln “really” meant it.

And why states that signed a contract bona fides, in part with the objection to leave the union when necessary, have no way of getting out when that trust is violated especially in the light of the declaration of independence and its position on governments “rights”.

"In his 1801 First Inaugural Address one of the first things Thomas Jefferson did was to support the right of secession. “If there be any among us who wish to dissolve the Union or to change its republican form,” the author of the Declaration of Independence said, “let them stand undisturbed, as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.”

" Jefferson and James Madison were the authors of the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 which held that “where powers were assumed by the national government which had not been granted by the states, nullification is the rightful remedy,” and that every state has a right to “nullify of its own authority all assumptions of power by others. . .” Nullification of unconstitutional federal actions was a means of effectively seceding."

" The election of 1800 was a battle between Jefferson and the supporters of limited, decentralized government and the Federalist Party, which advocated a more powerful and centralized state. The Federalists were so bitter about their electoral defeat that they immediately began plotting to secede from the Union. The important point about this episode is that this secession movement, which was based in New England, was led by some of the most distinguished men of the founding generation and was never opposed on principle by Jefferson or anyone else. It was argued that secession might have been an unwise strategy, but no one denied that states enjoyed a right of secession."

" At the outbreak of the War for Southern Independence in 1861 the vast majority of Northern opinion leaders still believed that a right of secession was fundamental, and that the South should be allowed to go in peace. The abolitionist Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Daily Tribune and the preeminent journalist of his day, wrote on December 17, 1860 that “if tyranny and despotism justified the American Revolution of 1776, then we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861” (Howard Perkins, Northern Editorials on Secession). “Nine out of ten people of the North,” Greeley wrote on February 5, 1861, “were opposed to forcing South Carolina to remain in the Union,” for “the great principle embodied by Jefferson in the Declaration . . . is that governments derive their just power from the consent of the governed.” Therefore, if the southern states wanted to secede, “they have a clear right to do so.”

Similar statements were made by newspapers all throughout the North on the eve of the war, and are perhaps best represented by an editorial in the Kenosha, Wisconsin Democrat, which on January 11, 1861, wrote that secession is “the very germ of liberty” and declared that “the right of secession inheres to the people of every sovereign state.”

“If military force is used,” the Bangor Daily Union wrote on November 13, 1860, then a state can only be seen “as a subject province and can never be a co-equal member of the American union.”

Most of the top military commanders in the war (on both sides) were educated at West Point, where the one course on the U.S. Constitution was taught by the Philadelphia abolitionist William Rawle, who taught from his own book, A View of the Constitution. What Ulysses S. Grant, Robert E. Lee, and others were taught about secession at West Point was that to deny a state the right of secession “would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed.”

"Lincoln never attended West Point, but he supported secession when it served his political plans. He warmly embraced the secession of West Virginia from Virginia, for example, and was glad to permit slavery in West Virginia (and all other “border states”) as long as they supported him politically. Indeed, in a July 4, 1848 speech Lincoln said, “Any people whatsoever have the right to abolish the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right.” Lincoln biographers never seem to get around to quoting this particular speech. "

States that considered secession, or seceded:

New England, in 1803 over the Louisiana Purchase, in 1808 over the embargo of British trade, in 1814 over war with Britain, in 1843 over the annexation of Texas, and in 1847 over the Mexican War.

South Carolina, due to the “Tariffs of Abomination” which threatened both South Carolina’s economy and the Union

West Virginia, he western counties of Virginia making up what is now West Virginia seceded from Virginia (which had joined the Confederacy) and became the 35th state of the U.S. during the course of the American Civil War, and remained separated after the war ended.

Texas, he Republic of Texas successfully seceded from Mexico in 1836. In 1845 Texas joined the United States as a full-fledged state. Mexico refused to recognize Texas independence and warned the U.S. that annexation meant war. The Mexican�??American War followed in 1846.

I wish the Founding Fathers had thought a little and planned ---- make secession an absolute right and put it smack dab in the middle of the Constitution.

While they were at it, make all taxes unconstitutional and fund gov’t with user fees. Ban fiat money and make ONLY gold and silver issued by a US government treasury lawful money (anyone trying to intro fiat money should be tried for treason, to humanity). Outlaw fractional reserve banking forever.

Would’ve been one better world if they had done those things.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I wish the Founding Fathers had thought a little and planned ---- make secession an absolute right and put it smack dab in the middle of the Constitution.

While they were at it, make all taxes unconstitutional and fund gov’t with user fees. Ban fiat money and make ONLY gold and silver issued by a US government treasury lawful money (anyone trying to intro fiat money should be tried for treason, to humanity). Outlaw fractional reserve banking forever.

Would’ve been one better world if they had done those things.[/quote]

You think?

The constitution would still say what he supreme court says it does and people like Thunderbolt would still insist that it obviously could never have meant anything else.

[quote]orion wrote:
Jack_Dempsey wrote:
Lincoln called Frederick Douglass to the White House in 1864 during the blackest days of the war. Lincoln feared the Union was about to lose the war and they would be forced to sue for peace – with slavery intact. Lincoln wanted Douglass to look into the feasibility of sneaking as many slaves north as possible before that happened. That tells me all I need to know about his personal feeling about free blacks migrating north. His feelings as a statesman over the years are far more complicated.

“There is a very great aversion in the West – I know it to be so in my state – against having free negros come among us. Our people want nothing to do with the negro.” - Senator Lyman Trumbull, Illinois.

Most Northerners disapproved of slavery, but probably nine out of ten also had no use for ex-slaves who would move north and compete for jobs.

These were the political eggshells Lincoln found himself walking on. He told Charles Sumner, the most militant abolitionist in government, that he was “just 60 days behind you” on race. Sumner, senator from the one state in the nation where blacks were treated almost as well as whites, could be radical. Lincoln, president of an extremely racist nation, could not.

He moved slowly and deliberately and changed people’s minds through his speeches and writings. Colonization was a dead end and the antislavery Republicans knew it. The costs were astronomical and Lincoln and most other anti-slavery politicians insisted it be voluntary. Most blacks didn’t want to relocate.

But it served its purpose. It softened the blow of Emancipation for Americans afraid of an influx of blacks moving into their state and competing for jobs. People sometimes forget the Emancipation Proclamation was the most unpopular act of Lincoln’s presidency in the North. The Republican party got hit hard in the mid-term elections because of Emancipation and Lincoln didn’t expect to be re-elected and was surprised when he was.

The main thrust of your argument seems to be that Lincoln needed
the Union to abolish slavery.

Am I correct?

[/quote]

No, sorry, you are incorrect.
I am not answering for Jack Dempsey; but Lincoln himself is answering for me:

“I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” … My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”

(from his famous letter to Horace Greely August 22, 1862)

I will leave to others the answer to your persistent sophistry on the legality of secession. You do not respect my answers, anyway.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:
Jack_Dempsey wrote:
Lincoln called Frederick Douglass to the White House in 1864 during the blackest days of the war. Lincoln feared the Union was about to lose the war and they would be forced to sue for peace – with slavery intact. Lincoln wanted Douglass to look into the feasibility of sneaking as many slaves north as possible before that happened. That tells me all I need to know about his personal feeling about free blacks migrating north. His feelings as a statesman over the years are far more complicated.

“There is a very great aversion in the West – I know it to be so in my state – against having free negros come among us. Our people want nothing to do with the negro.” - Senator Lyman Trumbull, Illinois.

Most Northerners disapproved of slavery, but probably nine out of ten also had no use for ex-slaves who would move north and compete for jobs.

These were the political eggshells Lincoln found himself walking on. He told Charles Sumner, the most militant abolitionist in government, that he was “just 60 days behind you” on race. Sumner, senator from the one state in the nation where blacks were treated almost as well as whites, could be radical. Lincoln, president of an extremely racist nation, could not.

He moved slowly and deliberately and changed people’s minds through his speeches and writings. Colonization was a dead end and the antislavery Republicans knew it. The costs were astronomical and Lincoln and most other anti-slavery politicians insisted it be voluntary. Most blacks didn’t want to relocate.

But it served its purpose. It softened the blow of Emancipation for Americans afraid of an influx of blacks moving into their state and competing for jobs. People sometimes forget the Emancipation Proclamation was the most unpopular act of Lincoln’s presidency in the North. The Republican party got hit hard in the mid-term elections because of Emancipation and Lincoln didn’t expect to be re-elected and was surprised when he was.

The main thrust of your argument seems to be that Lincoln needed
the Union to abolish slavery.

Am I correct?

No, sorry, you are incorrect.
I am not answering for Jack Dempsey; but Lincoln himself is answering for me:

“I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be “the Union as it was.” … My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.”

(from his famous letter to Horace Greely August 22, 1862)

I will leave to others the answer to your persistent sophistry on the legality of secession. You do not respect my answers, anyway.[/quote]

That depends on if they contain anything that could be loosely called an argument.

I know where Lincoln stood on this, I was asking Jack Dempsey if one could sum up what he wrote that way.

Then, sophistry is hardly the right word to describe the widespread opinion before the war of northern aggression.

In fact I would say that it was the allmost undisputed opinion, taken for granted if you will.

I have even quotes and links and fancy stuff like that.

Which at least proves that I do not draw stuff out of my ass but out of someone elses.

Which is more than can be said about a lot of posters on this thread.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

While they were at it, make all taxes unconstitutional and fund gov’t with user fees. Ban fiat money and make ONLY gold and silver issued by a US government treasury lawful money (anyone trying to intro fiat money should be tried for treason, to humanity). Outlaw fractional reserve banking forever.[/quote]

You might be surprised to know that everything you just suggested is commanded in the Qur’an.

Fiat money is an abomination in the eyes of Allah.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

While they were at it, make all taxes unconstitutional and fund gov’t with user fees. Ban fiat money and make ONLY gold and silver issued by a US government treasury lawful money (anyone trying to intro fiat money should be tried for treason, to humanity). Outlaw fractional reserve banking forever.

You might be surprised to know that everything you just suggested is commanded in the Qur’an.

Fiat money is an abomination in the eyes of Allah.[/quote]

Are taxes forbidden? Wasn’t fractional reserve banking invented by the Venetians or maybe the Dutch? Does that part in the Qur’an refer to lending only?

I’m genuinely curious — am I Muslim and didn’t even know it??? I know that technically I’m a Jew (mother was) and here I am a Muslim. Wow!! :smiley:

[quote]orion wrote:

The constitution would still say what he supreme court says it does and people like Thunderbolt would still insist that it obviously could never have meant anything else.[/quote]

What is cute about this is that I could be dead right or dead wrong about the constitutional merits of secession - and Orion wouldn’t have a clue either way. He’s too incompetent on the matter to even have a fun discussion on it.

That said, this is the same Orion that insisted in another thread - which he has gone silent on curiously - that I have never, ever, ever, ever provided any evidence of the illegality of succession, and yet I gave him four threads in which the topic was discussed at length (including a thread he participated in).

So, in addition to being ignorant of the topic, he is hiding behind the fraud of suggesting no one has addressed the issue he is raising now.

Dumb and dishonest - ah well, on to the topic. I’ll address it here.

There are a number of ways to advancing the argument, but time is limited for me, so here is the short version:

Articles of Confederation

States could not secede under the Articles. The Union was perpetual and inviolate, no one state could leave.

Thomas Jefferson, himself used as a proponent of secession, even opined that under the Articles, force could be used to coerce states into remaining in the Union:

It has been so often said, as to be generally believed, that Congress have no power by the Confederation to enforce anything; for example, contributions of money. It was not necessary to give them that power expressly; they have it by the law of nature. When two parties make a compact, there results to each a power of compelling the other to execute it. Compulsion was never so easy as in our case, where a single frigate would soon levy on the commerce of any State the deficiency of its contributions; nor more safe than in the hands of Congress, which has always shown that it would wait, as it ought to do, to the last extremities, before it would execute any of its powers which are disagreeable.

So, we know states retain no power to secede under the Articles. Good starting point. Then, we note that the whole point of the Constitution was to provide for a stronger federal government than what was under the Articles. Now, a secession power under the Constitution would make the federal government weaker than under the Articles - where the right of secession wasn’t before can’t be presumed to be added if the theory is to make the federal government even stronger than it was in the first incarnation.

That demonstrates Intent - no way the Founders would have permitted a power that would undermine the very project they had undertaken. That defies logic, common sense, and legal philosophy. Next up - Ratification.

Ratification of the Constitution

Pro-ratifiers didn’t think the Constitution created a league of states, they knew it was designed to be something different.

Hamilton:

[i]There is nothing absurd or impracticable in the idea of a league or alliance between independent nations for certain defined purposes precisely stated in a treaty�?�depending for its execution on the good faith of the parties. Compacts of this kind exist among all civilized nations�?�. In the early part of the [eighteenth] century there was an epidemical rage in Europe for this species of compacts, from which the politicians of the times fondly hoped for benefits which were never realized�?�. [T]hey were scarcely formed before they were broken, giving an instructive but afflicting lesson to mankind, how little dependence is to be placed on treaties which have no other sanction than the obligations of good faith, and which oppose general considerations of peace and justice to the impulse of any immediate interest or passion. If the particular States in this country are disposed to stand in a similar relation to each other, and to drop the project of a general DISCRETIONARY SUPERINTENDENCE, the scheme would indeed be pernicious, and would entail upon us all the mischiefs which have been enumerated�?�.

But if we are unwilling to be placed in this perilous situation; if we still will adhere to the design of a national government, or, which is the same thing, of a superintending power, under the direction of a common council, we must resolve to incorporate into our plan those ingredients which may be considered as forming the characteristic difference between a league and a government; we must extend the authority of the Union to the persons of the citizens,�??the only proper objects of government.[/i]

More Hamilton, on why the Articles won’t cut the mustard…

The great and radical vice in the construction of the existing Confederation is in the principle of LEGISLATION for STATES or GOVERNMENTS, in their CORPORATE or COLLECTIVE CAPACITIES, and as contradistinguished from the INDIVIDUALS of which they consist.

Patrick Henry (yes, of “give me liberty or give me death” fame) asked:

Who authorized [the Constitutional Convention] to speak the language of We the people, instead of We, the States? States are the characteristics, and the soul of a confederation.

Madison’s reply:

Should all the states adopt it, it will be then a government established by the thirteen states of America, not through the intervention of the legislatures, but by the people at large. In this particular respect, the distinction between the existing and proposed governments is very material. The existing system has been derived from the dependent derivative authority of the legislatures of the states; whereas this is derived from the superior power of the people�?�. Thus [the Constitution] is of a complicated nature; and this complication, I trust, will be found to exclude the evils of absolute consolidation, as well as of a mere confederacy. If Virginia was separated from all the states, her power and authority would extend to all cases: in like manner, were all powers vested in the general government, it would be a consolidated government; but the powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction.

These are all fun and good, and there are many more. But here is the more compelling issue - those opposed to the ratification of the Constitution opposed it precisely because it would not be a league of states, but a nation:

“Cincinnatus” wrote:

[s]uch is the anxiety manifested by the framers of the proposed constitution, for the utter extinction of the state sovereignties, that they were not content with taking from them every attribute of sovereignty, but would not leave them even the name.�??Therefore, in the very commencement they prescribe this remarkable declaration�??We the People of the United States.

“Brutus” complained:

It is ratified, [it] will not be a compact entered into by the States, in their corporate capacities, but an agreement of the people of the United States as one great body politic�?�. It is to be observed, it is not a union of states or bodies corporate; had this been the case the existence of the state governments might have been secured. But it is a union of the people of the United States considered as one body, who are to ratify this constitution, if it is adopted.

“Federal Farmer”:

when the people [of each state] shall adopt the proposed�?�it will be adopted not by the people of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, &c., but by the people of the United States…

So outside of the context that “retaining” a secession power that didn’t exist in the first place, both the proponents and the opponents of the ratification of the Constitution believed exactly the opposite of the “league of states” theory.

And, as an aside, as one law professor noted, if it had been understood that a secession power was available after ratification, it would have increased the chances of ratification significantly and the anti-federalists would have been few.

We know better - how? That was precisely why there was so much pushback on ratification: whatever rights a state has under a “league of states” framework (and we have already seen there was no secession right, but at any rate), they lost with the ratification of the Constitution, as it created a Union and a nation, not a treaty organization.

Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions.

Much is made of these, but when proposed to other state legislatures, the Resolutions were roundly rejected.

Plus, Madison - co-author of said Resolutions - had this to say to TJ:

Have you ever considered thoroughly the distinction between the power of the State, & that of the Legislature, on questions relating to the federal pact[?] On the supposition that the former is clearly the ultimate Judge of infractions, it does not follow that the latter is the legitimate organ especially as a convention was the organ by which the Compact was made.

More Madison:

[i][T]he characteristic peculiarities of the Constitution are 1. The mode of its formation, 2. The division of the supreme powers of Govt between the States in their united capacity and the States in their individual capacities. 1. It was formed, not by the Governments of the component States, as the Federal Govt. for which it was substituted was formed; nor was it formed by a majority of the people of the U.S. as a single community in the manner of a consolidated Government. It was formed by the States�??that is by the people in each of the States, acting in their highest sovereign capacity; and formed, consequently, by the same authority which formed the State Constitutions. Being thus derived from the same source as the Constitutions of the States, it has within each State, the same authority as the Constitution of the State, and is as much a Constitution, in the strict sense of the term, within its prescribed sphere, as the Constitutions of the States are within their respective spheres, but with this obvious & essential difference, that being a compact among the States in their highest sovereign capacity, and constituting the people thereof one people for certain purposes, it cannot be altered or annulled at the will of the States individually, as the Constitution of a State may be at its individual will.

As for Jefferson, though used as a proponent for the right to secession, he isn’t much use - he believed under the Articles that force could be used to keep states in the Union, and he actually prosecuted Aaron Burr for an attempted secession in Western American. TJ was a complex man - and not much help determining the issue.

Legal and Philosophical Arguments.

These have been covered before, over and over, so I won’t repeat myself, although the really, really smart Orion is certain they haven’t (“I’m right! And I know it!”), but a quick bullet point review:

-Checks and balances of the document itself demonstrate the Framers had no expectation of a secession veto that could override all the mechanics of federal government
-The Supremacy Clause would not have been drafted if states retained secession and nullification powers
-The Constitution textually permits the right of the government to put down insurrections and rebellions
-The Constitution provides for its own amendment and abolition via proscribed procedures

Now, as to the looneytarian view of the Constitution and the Civil War - it defies history and common sense, neither of which is the looneytarian’s specialty.

But as stated earlier, Orion’s dumb ass wouldn’t even know if I was right or wrong on the matter - so it takes the sport out of the debate.

EDIT: forgot to add Madison’s reply to Patrick Henry.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
orion wrote:

The constitution would still say what he supreme court says it does and people like Thunderbolt would still insist that it obviously could never have meant anything else.

What is cute about this is that I could be dead right or dead wrong about the constitutional merits of secession - and Orion wouldn’t have a clue either way. He’s too incompetent on the matter to even have a fun discussion on it.

That said, this is the same Orion that insisted in another thread - which he has gone silent on curiously - that I have never, ever, ever, ever provided any evidence of the illegality of succession, and yet I gave him four threads in which the topic was discussed at length (including a thread he participated in).

So, in addition to being ignorant of the topic, he is hiding behind the fraud of suggesting no one has addressed the issue he is raising now.

Dumb and dishonest - ah well, on to the topic. I’ll address it here.[/quote]

Thanks once again, because I will enjoy the learning experience, but it will be lost on Orion.

You have responded fairly and factually before, but why does he persist in this line of questions? He doesn’t get off the dime.

All the instances of secession theory which he cites, of course, never came to practical judgment, and are moot. Not constitutionally correct, not arguable justification, not law, just moot. A parlor game.

(The Virginia Resolutions are not relevant; the Constitution of 1788–“to form a more perfect union”–superceeded the Articles of Confederation and there is no explicit right of secession–anywhere. To imply otherwise is simply to engage in a discussion with a hollow vessel.)
It makes no sense to discuss this with Orion because he is a paraclete of Pope Rockwell.

He will never choose to read The Federalist, or to learn about secession, or Jackson, or Clay or Calhoun or…

“Dumb and dishonest?” My descriptives are “incorrect, and ignorant.” The infuriating arrogance and mendacity no longer even serve as a useful disguise for this ignoramus. Calling him ignorant is more charitable, but Thunderbolt, you are once again more accurate.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Thanks once again, because I will enjoy the learning experience, but it will be lost on Orion.

You have responded fairly and factually before, but why does he persist in this line of questions? He doesn’t get off the dime.

All the instances of secession theory which he cites, of course, never came to practical judgment, and are moot. Not constitutionally correct, not arguable justification, not law, just moot. A parlor game.

(The Virginia Resolutions are not relevant; the Constitution of 1788–“to form a more perfect union”–superceeded the Articles of Confederation and there is no explicit right of secession–anywhere. To imply otherwise is simply to engage in a discussion with a hollow vessel.)
It makes no sense to discuss this with Orion because he is a paraclete of Pope Rockwell.

He will never choose to read The Federalist, or to learn about secession, or Jackson, or Clay or Calhoun or…

“Dumb and dishonest?” My descriptives are “incorrect, and ignorant.” The infuriating arrogance and mendacity no longer even serve as a useful disguise for this ignoramus. Calling him ignorant is more charitable, but Thunderbolt, you are once again more accurate. [/quote]

It’s gotten to the point of silliness, and really a waste of effort with the likes of Orion, Lifticus, and Al Shades/Nommy. The sport is indeed gone - and Orion keeps puffing his chest and pressing his case, but it is hilarious to watch: Orion knows next to nothing about the topic, but arrogantly blusters about hoping someone will think he is a big, big man.

By the way, I have noticed a curious and immature trend. Among the Moron Triplets I listed above, have you noticed the juvenile conceit of routinely boasting about how superior they are?

-Orion: “I know it, and I am right, and no one has ever made arguments to refute my positions”

-Lifty: “I run rings around you intellectually”

-Al Shades: “I am your intellectual superior, and, indeed, qualified to be part of a ruling class”

Hmmm - why the puffery? Actually, I know exactly why - they have to believe they are more awesome-than-thou, because sure as hell no one else does. You have to self-advertise when no one else will.

It’s whiney and insecure and pathetic and lost on the rest of us - but, well, I don’t note this to suggest I am surprised at it, as amusing at it is.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right–a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world.

“Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit.”

Although I am not much of an admirer of the man who said this, I am in wholehearted agreement.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
There are a number of ways to advancing the argument, but time is limited for me, so here is the short version:

Articles of Confederation

States could not secede under the Articles. The Union was perpetual and inviolate, no one state could leave.

Thomas Jefferson, himself used as a proponent of secession, even opined that under the Articles, force could be used to coerce states into remaining in the Union:

It has been so often said, as to be generally believed, that Congress have no power by the Confederation to enforce anything; for example, contributions of money. It was not necessary to give them that power expressly; they have it by the law of nature. When two parties make a compact, there results to each a power of compelling the other to execute it. Compulsion was never so easy as in our case, where a single frigate would soon levy on the commerce of any State the deficiency of its contributions; nor more safe than in the hands of Congress, which has always shown that it would wait, as it ought to do, to the last extremities, before it would execute any of its powers which are disagreeable.

[/quote]

This tells me that you can force a partner to honor an agreement if necessary.

This is debatable but even if it was universally excepted contracts only need to be honored up to a point.

There is no evidence that this is his stance on the issue of secession where the topic is not a breach of contract but the nullification of it.

You do not have to deliver turnips to a buyer after he burned your house down, your contractual relationship is over.

Or I could argue that the state voided the contract once it started to violate the natural rights of third parties, the citizens of the South.

Escapes me, how we know that.

The whole point is that it was not up to them to permit anything. Natural law, remember.

As my previous link has shown secession was argued against as a bad move for New England, but never on principle.

That could convince me that states had no rights to secede. Which would of course only lead to the argument that the original states, signing the constitution ceased to exist the moment the Confederation left the Union and formed a new “Union”.

Since state rights do not trump individuals rights under the idea of a natural law you cannot force individuals via their states governments to accept the federal government.

That immediately removes the legitimacy not only of the state but also of the federal government doing this.

And does not say anything about secession.

re·bel·lion

  1. open, organized, and armed resistance to one’s government or ruler.
  2. resistance to or defiance of any authority, control, or tradition.
  3. the act of rebelling.

insurgency

noun
an organized rebellion aimed at overthrowing a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict

secession

noun

  1. an Austrian school of art and architecture parallel to the French art nouveau in the 1890s
  2. the withdrawal of eleven southern states from the Union in 1860 which precipitated the American Civil War
  3. formal separation from an alliance or federation

[quote]

-The Constitution provides for its own amendment and abolition via proscribed procedures

Now, as to the looneytarian view of the Constitution and the Civil War - it defies history and common sense, neither of which is the looneytarian’s specialty.

But as stated earlier, Orion’s dumb ass wouldn’t even know if I was right or wrong on the matter - so it takes the sport out of the debate.

EDIT: forgot to add Madison’s reply to Patrick Henry.[/quote]