T Nation

The Killing of Anwar al-Awlaki


Anwar al-Awlaki was a U.S. citizen, killed by predator drone earlier today. He was on the CIA targeted kill list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Is it okay for a US citizen to be put on that list without a trial and conviction? Does this set a precedent which may be unfavorably exploited in the future? What say you, PWI?


While I am conflicted on the deeper implications associated with this action, I am clear on the fact that I am glad he is dead.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Fuck him. Hope he is being ass fucked in Hell by a demon with a barbed penis.


And next on out list to "get a predator drone up the ass" ...


Yes. We are at war with Islamic fundamentalists; Islamic fundamentalists who happen to be US citizens and Islamic fundamentalists who are not US citizens - doesn't matter. They are "enemy combatants."

No. For example, during WWII habeas corpus was suspended and martial law declared in Hawaii. Following Pearl Harbour, most Americans were more concerned about the survival of the country and their children than they were about a hypothetical Hawaiian tyranny. You see what I mean?


He asked if it could be a dangerous precedent in the future ... you are now citing past examples to make it sound ok in the present. In other words, yes it could be unfavorably exploited in the future. You may logically defend this instance, and past instances, but you can't do that for the future. You have no idea what that will bring


You mean, could it be a problem that an American president claims he can have people assassinated because he says so and that goes unchallenged?

No, and neither is his claim that he can basically disappear people, what could possibly go wrong !?!


I see, its that time of the year again:

They Thought They Were Free

The Germans, 1933-45
Milton Mayer

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn?t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people?s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ?expected to? participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one?s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. ?One had no time to think. There was so much going on.?"

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ?little men,? your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about?we were decent people?and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ?crises? and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ?national enemies,? without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it?please try to believe me?unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ?regretted,? that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ?little measures? that no ?patriotic German? could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice??Resist the beginnings? and ?Consider the end.? But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your ?little men,? your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something?but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn?t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don?t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don?t want to ?go out of your way to make trouble.? Why not??Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ?everyone? is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ?It?s not so bad? or ?You?re seeing things? or ?You?re an alarmist.?

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can?t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don?t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.



2008 video from Anwar called for muslims around the world to ''kill americans without hesitation''.

Bravo Zulu, job well done.


Wait, werent you the one who insisted that Nazis were kind of bad?


The dealt with enemies of the people quite swiftly and decisively!

I guess they were not all bad, huh?


Gee Whiz u again, you haven't been attending your psychotherapy sessions have you, naughty you.

Not all Germans were Nazis, there were Germans who served with honour and bravery.

Further to r question, i cannot recall the jews of Europe calling to kill Germans without hesitation prior to kick off.

Please attend your future sessions, u know u will thank me in the long run.


I am pretty sure that I could find one or the other Jew who said something or other.

That however is not the point you dolt, the point is that it is utterly, totally, completely and without any question unacceptable that the executive branch claims the authority to have people killed without a trial, without them even knowing that they are targeted, just on their say so.

I am sorry, based on their well thought of reasoning that they cannot disclose due to, so sorry, national security reasons.

The fact that this is not immediately met with public outrage but actually cheered on by parts of the public is a sign of what a bunch of pussies the American public is made of, as if we needed more proof after the TSA, if you let high school dropouts fondle your daughter because they have a government issued costume, well....

You want to know why Nazi Germany could happen?

Look in the mirror, it is not much more complicated than that.



Actually no, that's nonsense. The constitution grants the executive the power to wage war and make treaties. "Enemy combatants" get snuffed. It's constitutional.

No, due to 17,807 documented Islamic terrorist attacks carried out since 9/11. There's no secret about why we need to snuff the Islamic fundamentalist leaders. Want some links to some gory pictures?

Priceless. An Austrian who instructs the world on why WWII happened.


Rubbish, his father approached in July 2010 the American Civil Liberties Union to have his son taken off the targeted killings list, he knew his father knew, fuck him, he made his intentions crystal clear.

Do seek that help.


Look in the mirror, LOL.

Look in the family photo album, its not much more complicated than that.

Its that projection again, its a bitch isn't it.


It's kind of pathetic that some people criticise Orion for events he was never involved in because they can't think of a meaningful rebuttal to his argument and I speak as someone who had relatives gassed by the Nazis.

Anyway is there a chance this killing could be covered by this ruling over the 4th amendment?


Maybe it's something to do with the fact that he posts comments like the one above in which he suggests that the TSA searching procedures in the US are likely to lead to a form of society resembling Nazi Germany. Maybe that's why this particular Austrian gets those sort of replies.


just have a read and see who brought up the Nazis up in this thread, kinda pathetic people keep making excuses for him.

BTW you are not the only one who had family killed in WW2.


^^ - @Bambi: He's right. And take a look at the 'Gay adoption' thread. Orion brought up the Nazis and compared them to people who question gay adoption.


Ironic also that Orion speaks as someone who had relatives in the Waffen SS.


Is there a an orion wiki somehwere, because it needs a serious overhaul.