T Nation

The Impeachment Hearings

For me, these hearings reveal all that is wrong with our broken politics…and reveals in stark terms the divide in this Country.

Out of pure frustration; I don’t; and will not; discuss it with people beyond here on PWI, because it’s like “discussing” abortion. (Which I don’t “discuss” even on line).

Both sides (Liberal/Conservative) are saying their side is “winning”.

Facts are being “countered” with Alternative Facts.

Accusations are not being addressed…but instead the messengers are being attacked and vilified.

And we have a person sitting in the Oval Office furthering the divide and vilifying almost all institutions of Government…while he uses those same institutions as if they are all there merely to serve his interest.

Like most instances in his Life…Trump will come out of this smirking, sticking up his middle finger, and grabbing his crotch at anything and anyone who defys him…and will continue on with his sham of a Presidency with greater than 50% support of the voting electorate who Love his “policies”…

MAGA.

Four more years.

The floor is open.

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I hope my local Representative doesn’t get on TV, acting like a real asshole, angerly repeating some jerk-off question.

Ugh, it’s fucking ridiculous the framing of these reports. The echo chamber and confirmation bias is at a fever pitch man. It’s gross.

See above. I’m disgusted by so-called “news outlets”. if this is the state of the 5 the pillar then I suggest we all stock up on bottled water, non-perishables, ammo and guns. We’re in for a long winter.

Yup.

Probably.

The media and “other side” are playing right into it though. This whole charade is like something from poorly written political fiction…

I don’t really have much else to add other that, as usual, I agree with your opening sentiment. Looking forward to the conversation from more insightful/better informed people…

I wouldn’t be so sure of that.

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When all else fails, an ad hominen attack will help rile up emotions.

I think both sides have been executing their respective strategies as well as can be expected. The Democrats have clearly laid out Trump’s offenses, and the Republicans have done a good job shifting the focus to literally everything but Trump’s offenses - Mueller, the Steele dossier, Adam Schiff, why public hearings are unacceptable, why private hearings are unacceptable, the “real” foreign collusion perpetrated by the democrats, etc. As long as the Republicans conflate, distract, and most importantly stick together, I think Republicans are likely to win this.

In my mind, winning for the Republicans means keeping public opinion about where it is now. Democrats have a higher bar to clear to win this. They need to shift public opinion in their favor by a measurable margin. I think Trump being impeached in the House and acquitted in the Senate is a forgone conclusion at this point. Trump will call the acquittal a victory, regardless of any change in public opinion.

Facts don’t play into any of this because the American electorate doesn’t have a single source of truth any more. Truth is whatever confirms your existing bias, and cable news on both sides is happy to tell their respective audiences what they want to hear. Fox News is the more egregious offender of course.

Regardless of what affect this all has on public opinion, I don’t think Trump will win a majority or even a plurality if votes in November. I think the recent Virginia election is an indication of whats to come. However, Trump could still win the election if the Democrats don’t figure out how to connect with midwestern white voters. The big wild card is the form and extent of foreign intervention in the 2020 election. God only knows what that’s going to look like. We also need to keep in mind the next recession is going to be BAD. The fed has cut rates to almost zero and we’re running near-record deficits, which means we have far fewer monetary and fiscal tools to deal with a downturn when it does inevitably come. If the recession hits in 2020, that could become the singular issue people vote on.

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Agree 100%…including the “winning” part.

Outstanding.

Agree 100% again, @kjm .

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I am on record, @kjm, in saying that I think Trump will win. However:

  1. I have a terrible record at predicting Presidential wins, and

  2. I am still working on what the appeal of Warren is to so many.

This just needed to be emphasized.

might be the “She ain’t Trump” angle that is the other side of the “He ain’t Hillary” coin from 2016…?

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I don’t find Elizabeth Warren charming or personally engaging at all, and I’m not a fan of some of her signature policies (i.e. the wealth tax). However, there are some things I like about her. She’s spent a good chunk of her career working to improve consumer protections while teaching Sunday school on the side, which is to say she seems like a fundamentally decent person. Second, she has an air of competence and intelligence about her. Of course, I can only speak for myself.

The biggest thing counting against her is her gender. Even today, I think a candidate loses a measurable amount of support by not being a straight white male.

Actually, the most bizarre aspect of this whole Ukraine scandal is the fact that evidence of a Deep State criminal conspiracy keeps popping up - the only problem is that it’s a Conservative one…

Conservative lawyers Joe diGenova and Victoria Toensing, who this year took on as a client an oligarch at the center of the Ukraine scandal, also represent the conservative columnist who has advanced Trump-friendly claims of corruption in Kyiv.

“John Solomon has been a client of our firm for a very long time,” Joe diGenova told POLITICO on Thursday. “He’s a journalist and he has legal needs, like many journalists.”

DiGenova wouldn’t comment on how far back that relationship went, and he also declined to answer questions about whether there’s been an uptick in activity with Solomon. “We don’t discuss our client’s business,” he said.

Toensing and diGenova also represent Dmitry Firtash, a Ukrainian gas magnate who lives in Vienna and is fighting extradition to the U.S. on bribery charges. Firtash paid the lawyers $1 million to uncover dirt on Joe Biden and to win help in his legal case from Trump’s personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, according to Bloomberg News.

Solomon was the first to report on an affidavit obtained from Firtash by his lawyers, Toensing and diGenova, who are also Solomon’s lawyers.

The lawyers’ son, Brady, joined DOJ’s Office of Legal Policy in June as a senior counsel.

The privilege issue came up most recently in a New York court on Wednesday, when a lawyer for the recently indicted operative Lev Parnas said the White House might invoke executive privilege over evidence collected in the campaign finance investigation. That is because Giuliani was representing Parnas and Trump at the same time, said the lawyer, Edward MacMahon Jr.

“He was working for Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Giuliani was working for the president of the United States,” McMahon told the judge, U.S. District Court Judge Paul Oetken.

Solomon, a former op-ed columnist and executive vice president for The Hill who recently left to launch his own outlet, has written extensively about Hunter Biden’s activities in Ukraine and about Marie Yovanovitch, the veteran ambassador who was abruptly recalled in May amid a campaign by Trump’s allies—including Giuliani—to remove her. DiGenova and Toensing have appeared frequently as guests on Hill TV.

A series of articles Solomon published about Ukraine were mentioned in an anonymous complaint by an intelligence community whistleblower, which characterized Solomon’s work as part of the “circumstances leading up to” Trump’s July 25 call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. In that call, Trump asked Zelensky to investigate the Bidens and “get to the bottom of” Ukraine’s alleged interference in the 2016 election.

Solomon, who is now a Fox News contributor, also featured in documents the State Department’s Inspector General gave Congress earlier this month that revealed a campaign to smear Yovanovitch and the Bidens.

Included in the roughly 50-page packet was an email from Solomon to Toensing, diGenova, and Parnas previewing an article he’d written that was not yet published. The story claimed that the Obama administration had directed Ukrainian prosecutors to drop an investigation into a group “co-funded by both the Obama administration and the liberal megadonor George Soros.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/24/ukraine-oligarch-lawyers-joe-digenova-victoria-toensing-056643

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I think they succeed at this. However, I don’t think this is the metric they need to succeed at. I believe that they need to keep voter turnout very close to the same as 2016.

Trump’s approval / disapproval is almost constant despite scandal after scandal. People have their minds made up. Trump’s people showed up in droves in 2016, and I believe they will in 2020. If the left achieves the same voter percentages as the right, I think it will be a new president with a blue wave.

I think we’re saying the same thing. Success for Republicans is maintaining the status quo.

I agree that different people are going to different sources for support for their own worldview, which one reason why Trump’s popularity never drops below 30%; I just prefer my terminology for it to avoid arguing about what is “truth.” I certainly hope the recent Democratic elections are a sign of things to come. I sometimes think Nancy Pelosi has timed as much as this possible so the bad news is fresh in people’s minds come election time, but other times I think she has been waiting for evidence she thinks even the Senate has to listen to. She might be wrong; we’ll know by 2021.

Originally, the Deep State simply meant career government officials who are there before politicians come and after politicians leave, and the institutional and relationship power that they develop. I think a lot of Trump’s staff are more like people who rode into Washington on Trump’s coattails and the Deep State is resisting their amateurish and sometimes corrupt behavior. My favorite show about the conflict between the deep state and politicians is “Yes, Prime Minister.”

As I listen to more and more of these diplomats; the more and more I have come to realize that showing disdain and disrespect for them is the same as showing disdain and disrespect for our Military.

Serious question; I take it that the Military/Pentagon are not part of “The Deep State”? (As defined by the person who first coined the term, whom introduced the term in a book? Or was it in an editorial?). And I take it that “The Deep State” works to defend the Democratic party and undermine Trump?

(TRUMP undermines Trump…IMO…)

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"I obviously don’t dispute that the president has the right to withdraw an ambassador at any time for any reason, but I do wonder why it was necessary to attack my reputation."

Marie Yovanovitch-Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine

(Shortly after this; Trump tweeted a statement further ridiculing the former Ambassador).

Again, she was fired because two petty crooks who are working for a Russian mafioso nicknamed “Lightbulb” told the President of the United States to do so.

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(…Wait for it…):

“…What about Obama?”…has come up in the Hearings…

What a surprise…