VERY interesting thought, Free. Question to think about: How much MAY have to do with CHRONOLOGIC age change? (Looking at your training age as an independent variable, even though that would probably be impossible…but at least for sake of argument). I wonder if the Pro’s find the same problem as you’ve indicated? Many are in their mid to late 30’s at the upper levels…Ummmm…this is something to really think about…
In order to respond I need to explain my view
on “age”. I actually see 4 types of “age”. And
I consider each of these types of “age” to be
independent of the others. 1)Psycholgical
age/maturity (not relevant to this topic)
2)Training age (already discussed)
3)Chronological age (years since birth)
4)Biological age (status of the body based on
various biomarker tests of function). I make a
distinction between chronological age and
biological age. For example, people who smoke,
drink heavily, eat like shit and generally
abuse their bodies have a vastly accelerated
rate of biological aging. You can take 2
people both chronologically 30, and measure
bio-markers of aging and one might have the
biology of a 22 year old while the other might
have the biology of a 45 year old. This is
partly influenced by genetics. And with more
and more anti-aging remedies coming online, I
think more and more that you will see a
seperation between chronological age and
biological age. Up until recently those have
often been considered one and the same, but
more and more I think it is becoming clear
that that view is inappropriate. Basically I
reject the idea that chronological aging has
to mean biological aging. So in response to
your comment, I could see how biological age
could have an effect on results independent of
training age. But I fail to see any connection
between chronological age and results. As
far as my body, I see the change as having
far more to do with training age than anything
else. Both my health and fitness are better
now than, well, probably ever in my life. My
chronological age is still in what would
normally be considered “prime” for an athlete.
And my biological age as measured by various
biomarkers is probably still early 20s (except
for androgen levels which for me have never
been great). So for me, I really don’t see any
connection between chronological age and
results. (Training age, yes, chronological age, no.)
So if someone gains fat at a faster rate than
muscle, what are they to do? Are they just
screwed? Or is there some way to improve
the ratio?
Would it be better to skip the olive oils and concentrate more on flax and fish oils?
As always, Free…outstanding. Just a comment. One of the profound benefits I have found from almost a year on this site has been the re-thinking of diet and workout “truths and myths”. There have been some real eye openers, I must say! Diet…resistance training…cardio…you name it. Great stuff!
Your response was a prime example. If you think about it, for many, biologic age not only equals chronologic age, but probably SURPASSES it (i.e. a 40 year old from birth has the health of a 60 year old). So…to think in terms of a “training” or “biologic” age is as profound a change of thought as thinking NOT in terms of overWEIGHT but overFAT. Outstanding…!
Good thread. I’d like to bring in the Leptin issue. The genetic link between the ob-gene and Leptin has been established for some time now. Leptin significantly influences how bodyfat is managed. Low Leptin production with normal sensitivity or high Leptin production with defective sensitivity results in increases in bodyfat regardless of energy expenditures. The combination of high Leptin with low sensitivity appears to explain morbid obesity situation. Conversely, individuals with low Leptin output and extraordinary sensitivity end up being naturally very lean. Thermogenic activity of the fat cells is maximized. All of this ties into insulin sensitivity and almost all other hormonal systems including sex hormones.
the addition of some cardio can help with insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning. some supplements that could help are chromium, taurine, vanadium, alpha lipoic acid and omega 3 oils. kevo
Free, as always, good points. I didnt address the ability to change “gainer type” because it adds a whole other element of complexity to the scheme. Mufasa’s comment about age (we will only discuss “biological age” in this context) is a good one but the interplay between age, training years, and proximity to max potential blurrs any conclusions we might draw. For example…in my experience, if you train consistently, as you get older the “gainer type” shifts toward a propensity to gain less muscle (in this scenario the fat gain is highly dependent on genetics). As a result, however, we try to up the kcal intake to try to force more muscle growth and in turn, we add more fat. So I believe the muscle gains slow due to some physiological parameters and the fat gains change due to some environmental parameters (diet, etc.). However, what are the parameters that slow muscle gains? Well, rather than aging per se, it might simply be the fact we are getting closer to our max potential. The body is a powerfully homeostatic system and once we encroach upon its “set point”, it takes ALOT of work to maintain or superceed it. All in all, I believe that the overall natural “gainer type” changes very little as we age or progress, it’s our response to stagnation that dictates the further changes we make.
For the guys who were wondering what all this means...it means that if you stay clean, you will have to work within the limitations of your genetic makeup...Dont fret though since Ive seen some with terrible genetics build great physiques!
If you want to consult a team of pharmacists, then things get way easier as the combos of the right drugs “equal the playing field”…(ironic that I chose that wording, huh…I guess this gives away my stance on use of performance enhancing drugs too).
I’m a fat hardgainer. 6’, 252#, 18 3/8" arms, 50" chest, but a flabby 38" waist. Anyone ever gain weight using T2 without increasing calories? That’s me! I struggle to find the solution. I will never stop trying. My biggest problem is not pile-driving goons who don’t train with intensity and have no problem getting lean. They call us “chunks”, but their diet consists of more calories and junk. I have conceded that it isn’t fair, but to keep on going.
When i was in high school i was fat as shit. I was your classic endomorph. Then when i got into college i lost around 40 pounds of fat. Since then ive slowly gained muscle to the point where most people consider me to have great genetics. I believe that they are better than average but by no means great. In my situation, if i do everything right, i gain muscle. But if i dont i get fat.
What kind of pro/carb/fat ratio do you fat hardgainers follow?
JasonL: After a LOT of trail and error, reading, experimenting, and seeing what works best for ME (emphasis on “ME!”): About 50%P/25%C/25%F. Why? 1) Emphasis is on sufficient protein. 2)Carbs are high enough for fuel/energy and “protein sparing” 3) Fat is high enough for adequate hormornal function and to insure that I get in adequate Omega 3’s, monos, polys and yes, some saturated fat. Exact percentages may vary, but not by much.
Hey fellow hardgainers…check my post “Optimal training for hardgainer(tendency for fat gain)” I outline my current diet supplement regime and touch on my training too… I asked for some help from the staff and some of the great coaches that post…but response has been thin. If any of you guys have any ideas for me please let me know. Thanks…Mike
In regards to your diet 50%P/25%C/25%F, do you do meal combos of just P+C & P+F or is that the typical breakdown of your meals???
JD: I do meal combos; “Taper” method (which according to JB is more conducive to weight loss). Meals 1-3:Protein plus carbs with no fat. Meals 4-7:Protein plus fat with no carbs (except the post-workout meal). The macro’s all work out in the end. So far this works well for me.(However, I can’t WAIT to see JB’s and Shug’s new program though. Sounds like it may work well for a “fat hardgainer” like me! Shug’s alludes to the coming program in ealier post).
Thanks Mufasa! I follow the taper diet from Berardi also. Seems like the only way of eating that can keep me lean.