[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered at close to 50 your days of gaining appreciable lean mass naturally may be limited? (maybe this has already been discussed)
This takes nothing away from that fact you’re in better shape than most 20 year old men. [/quote]
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered that Captain Oblivious may be your actual identity? I am 30, not 50
Having said that, I have considered many times my ability to gain appreciable levels of muscle mass naturally may indeed be approaching their limit.
[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered at close to 50 your days of gaining appreciable lean mass naturally may be limited? (maybe this has already been discussed)
This takes nothing away from that fact you’re in better shape than most 20 year old men. [/quote]
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered that Captain Oblivious may be your actual identity? I am 30, not 50
Having said that, I have considered many times my ability to gain appreciable levels of muscle mass naturally may indeed be approaching their limit.[/quote]
Heh. I giggled. No, seriously. You know, my 7 year old would probably assume that 30 is close to 50. Until he counted on his fingers and toes.
[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered at close to 50 your days of gaining appreciable lean mass naturally may be limited? (maybe this has already been discussed)
This takes nothing away from that fact you’re in better shape than most 20 year old men. [/quote]
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have you ever considered that Captain Oblivious may be your actual identity? I am 30, not 50
Having said that, I have considered many times my ability to gain appreciable levels of muscle mass naturally may indeed be approaching their limit.[/quote]
Heh. I giggled. No, seriously. You know, my 7 year old would probably assume that 30 is close to 50. Until he counted on his fingers and toes.
–Me[/quote]
LOL, I think I have fully lived up to my screen name. Pretty sure I confused you with another poster. HA!
Just another data point here - Really Happy with My Results!
I started the High Frequency Delt Experiment on April 1st, so I just finished 4 weeks of training DB Laterals 6 days per week. I did 3-4 sets of 25-30 laterals/ heavy partial laterals.
I did miss a couple of days, but was mostly on track. I’m really happy with how it went. Unfortunately, I didn’t measure shoulder width before. I don’t think I’d see much if any actual width, but they do look better - a bit more capped when relaxed.
I have before pics, so if I can get a good after picture I’ll put them up. Waterbury suggest 4 weeks of work, then one week of recovery. I’m not sure you’ll be able to see change in a photograph, but I can tell they are a bit more capped, the muscle looks harder.
For reference, I’m 45. Female. Training for 5 years. I have been cutting this spring, but kept my weight stable/ maintenance this month. I might have done a bit better doing this on a bulk, but I didn’t want to derail myself. I was already training my delts twice per week, with a lot of volume. Delts have been very hard for me to build. I’ll definitely wait a month then do another cycle like this. Delts again.
Just of note - I thought I might have to quit when I developed a bit of pain in my right shoulder on day 17, but fortunately it went away after a couple of days. My right shoulder is easily irritated, and I’d started heavy Bench Pressing again during that time. I think my bench press is more likely the cause of the pain, rather than all the DB laterals.
Also, I intended to do delts and glutes at the same time but dropped off with my additional glute work - Hard to find the time to be consistent with both. I’m happy with my glute development, but was just trying to avoid loosing my booty while I cut a bit.
I too noticed at about week 3 my shoulders felt “worked” almost all the time. The volume and frequency was definitely noticeable, and the week off was welcomed to say the least.
The HFT2 book actually has a protocol for delts that is a bit different, and you can run it “indefinitely” without a deload week because it isnt 6 days a week (only 3 DAYS a week, but AM and PM work, so still 6x a week). That equals tons more recovery days. I’m currently in week 2 of that protocol and will likely run it for 6 weeks since that is when my next deload is scheduled from my regular training, you interested?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Thanks so much PowerPuff for that write up.
I too noticed at about week 3 my shoulders felt “worked” almost all the time. The volume and frequency was definitely noticeable, and the week off was welcomed to say the least.
The HFT2 book actually has a protocol for delts that is a bit different, and you can run it “indefinitely” without a deload week because it isnt 6 days a week (only 3 DAYS a week, but AM and PM work, so still 6x a week). That equals tons more recovery days. I’m currently in week 2 of that protocol and will likely run it for 6 weeks since that is when my next deload is scheduled from my regular training, you interested?[/quote]
Thank you, Lonnie. Yes! I like the 3 days per week Am/Pm idea. The summer months are the busiest time of the year, but I may run that one next.
I have to say, I sort of wasted the first couple of years of delt training, just not realizing that I’d respond to WAY more volume and heavy partials.
DB Laterals 10 x 4 sets once per week will get you nowhere if you have my Medial Delt genetics. AAGHH! Best of luck to you, and thanks again for sharing this experiment here. It’s been really helpful to me.
PowerPuff: Do the following exercises, once in the AM and once in the PM on 3 non-consecutive days
Day 1: Two sets of 5 “countdown reps” : The set starts with a 5 second isometric hold at the top of the lateral raise position, squeeze it as hard as possible (The idea is to activate the type 2 B fibers, which can only fire for about 10-15 seconds before they are fatigued out), then do 5 reps… Then a 4 second squeeze, then 4 reps… then 3…2…1 in the same manner. The last squeeze and rep should be pretty tough if you are at the right weight. Increase weight when it becomes easy.
Day 2: do three “sets” of a 10-20 second Isometric holds at the top of the lateral raise with 1 minute rest in between each. If you get to 20 seconds its too light, increase weight. Again the idea is to recruit and fatigue the type 2 B muscle fibers
Day 3: 100 lateral raises, as close to “one set” as you can get. You will likely need breaks but make them as short as possible… Start with a light weight here.
Per the HFT2 book, Because you aren’t hammering your delts every day like the HFT1 parameters you can actually do this longer than 4 weeks in a row… But just be aware of your recovery, and if you feel like you need a deload week simply do some lateral raises one day during the week, then jump back into this.
Hopefully you can report back in this thread in a few weeks, let us know the results!
^ Ok, Yikes. This HFT2 Protocol is very different. Thanks so much for the detailed instructions, Lonnie. I think I’ll try this plan next. I should be able to work in a 4 week cycle before I get really busy teaching.
End of 6 weeks of HFT2 for the delts and then a deload week, and .25 inches gained around the shoulders (after a half inch from the HFT1 experiment). Hardly noticeable, But it is measurable. And I do swear at certain times I have more meat on my medial delt that I ever remember seeing before, although this could very easily be mind games.
Weight stayed fairly consistent, so that didnt play a part in the numbers gain.
I did still train delts twice a week directly (just pressing movements, I saved all my lateral-raise-movements for this experiment)
Any thoughts, questions, comments??
Next up will be HFT1 Chest, I’ll be starting it in 2 weeks
4-25 to 6-9 I can’t say I see any real change. If anything the delts look slightly less capped to me but it’s probably just the picture, as you said you gained 0.25in which is something. How do you even get a consistent measurement with shoulders lol do you have someone do it for you? I find wrapping it around my chest or shoulders to be pretty inconsistent.
So you did HFT 3 before doing HFT 2?
I actually thought about you and this thread the other day as I have list of “routines to do” that I haven’t looked at in a while and this one came up HFT 2.0: How to Add Muscle or Hit 20 Pull-Ups I am going to be doing a modified Bulgarian Routine soon which is very high frequency and figured I’d tack that onto it with the 2nd method in there (6 days per week bicep curls) because why not lol. That will begin in about a month, though I’m open to suggestions. That 1 week bicep specialization I did by TC last year didn’t do shit for long term progress, as mentioned earlier in the thread.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I see the biggest change from 3-16-15 to 4-25
4-25 to 6-9 I can’t say I see any real change. If anything the delts look slightly less capped to me but it’s probably just the picture, as you said you gained 0.25in which is something. How do you even get a consistent measurement with shoulders lol do you have someone do it for you? I find wrapping it around my chest or shoulders to be pretty inconsistent. [/quote]
Totally, and the tape measure confirms it. Its tough to get a good shot in a Back Relaxed single Photo because arm angle plays such a huge role in how capped it looks. This was the best of 3, each one looked a bit different, I chose the best angle/lighting/distance, etc…
0.5 inches from 4 weeks of HFT1, and a gain of 0.25 from 6 weeks HFT2… This could be within the limits of error for the tape measure though as you noted.
I have a MyoTape which is generally a pretty consistent measurement, but there is room for error there. It self-retracts so you can just set it and push a button and it conforms to the body.
I did 4 weeks of HFT1 (which is basically doing a single exercise every single day, adding a rep each day) and then did 6 weeks of HFT2 (Doing 3 different exercises, twice a day on 3 days)
There is no HFT3
Let us know how it goes. I’m all for anyones high frequency experiment results happening here.
Overall though, for delts, it seems HFT1 is the way to go if you want to add some quick width. HFT2 I can’t really recommend since it didnt seem to add as much, and I did it for 50% longer.
I did 4 weeks of HFT1 (which is basically doing a single exercise every single day, adding a rep each day) and then did 6 weeks of HFT2 (Doing 3 different exercises, twice a day on 3 days)
There is no HFT3
[/quote]
Whoops, I knew something seemed off, I read the 3 indicating March as HFT 3 lol.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Let us know how it goes. I’m all for anyones high frequency experiment results happening here.
Overall though, for delts, it seems HFT1 is the way to go if you want to add some quick width. HFT2 I can’t really recommend since it didnt seem to add as much, and I did it for 50% longer.
[/quote]
I would agree though it’s also worth pointing out that since HFT 2 was done right after HFT 1 it would be expected that you’d make less progress from it. Yea it was 50% longer and that is significant, but I would have expected the results to taper off.
In any case, I will be following something more along the lines of HFT 1. I have to go back and look at what specifically HFT 1 is but the link I provided suggested “perform two sets of as many reps as possible six days per week on a 6 on/1 off cycle for four weeks.” and then “At the end of four weeks take 5 full days off from the exercise and take measurements.”.
There is no mention of what to do after it though, and I’m a bit surprised to see Waterbury suggesting taking all of these sets to failure. Maybe I’m remembering incorrectly but I thought he was a fan of higher frequency / total volume while staying a few reps shy of failure. Going to failure every day seems like a lot, though it will just be with biceps. Somewhat expecting elbow issues as I remember it being a slight issue towards the end of the week doing TC’s method last year.
You don’t necessarily have to go to failure, but since the HFT exercises are generally “easy” it isnt quite the same as going to failure with Squats @ 405lbs, you know?
I would typically go to about 1-2 reps short of failure however, as I found when you need to get 80+ reps it helps to keep the rest under control in between sets.
I’m 2.5 weeks into HFT biceps…pretty straightforward just doing 2 sets to failure 6 days per week. I started with supinating curls with Fat Gripz but had to switch to hammer curls with Fat Gripz by the 2nd say or so as I was hurting my left wrist pretty badly with the first choice.
I looked back at last year’s records when I did TC’s bicep specialization and given it was only 1 week I gained 2/16in on my arms and then lost that within 2 weeks despite gaining 6.6lb over those 3 total weeks.
With Waterbury’s specialization I have gained 4/16in on my arms and have gained 5lb in 3 weeks. So thus far it seems considerably better. Hopefully I can gain a bit more in the remaining 1.5 weeks and then taper off to just 3 days per week.
Going good, Half way through week 3 Chest. Will post results in a few weeks. I actually took pics AND vid for this one because I didnt feel like pics did justice to the results in the Delts… They were a bit more “3D” and detailed than I think I could capture in the pics so I’m doing a short 30 second video that captures the muscles a bit better.
For biceps Waterbury recommends alternating between 2 biceps-focused-rowing exercises (One done like the kind outlined here: Targeted Compound Arm Training , the other done like the Biceps exercise here WITHOUT the iso squeeze: https://www.T-Nation.com/training/new-way-to-trigger-fast-muscle-growth ) , starting at 25 reps with an 8-10RM on Day one and adding a rep every day for 4 weeks, keep the same weight and movements. Thats all I feel comfortable revealing on a public forum since its in his paid material only I think.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Going good, Half way through week 3 Chest. Will post results in a few weeks. I actually took pics AND vid for this one because I didnt feel like pics did justice to the results in the Delts… They were a bit more “3D” and detailed than I think I could capture in the pics so I’m doing a short 30 second video that captures the muscles a bit better.
For biceps Waterbury recommends alternating between 2 biceps-focused-rowing exercises (One done like the kind outlined here: Targeted Compound Arm Training , the other done like the Biceps exercise here WITHOUT the iso squeeze: https://www.T-Nation.com/training/new-way-to-trigger-fast-muscle-growth ) , starting at 25 reps with an 8-10RM on Day one and adding a rep every day for 4 weeks, keep the same weight and movements. Thats all I feel comfortable revealing on a public forum since its in his paid material only I think. [/quote]
Hm, I mean the one I posted for biceps is by Waterbury himself…so I guess he has different methods for each muscle group? In any case, the one I’m doing is pretty simple…just 2 sets of curls to failure 6 days per week for 4 weeks…done lol. I’ve consistently progressed and as of today have put on 5/16in on my arms in 3 weeks.
I think for the sake of progression I might bump that up to 3 sets per day for the final week next week…what do you think?
I forget what he says regarding maintenance but after that I figured going down to 3 days per week just to maintain the new gains should work. I’d like to do shoulders next as my medial delts are definitely lagging and while I look wide due to my back I could definitely use more “pop” in my delts if possible.
He has been writing/testing this stuff for years so no doubt he has multiple methods out there.
The “add a rep every day” method is specifically from his HFT1 book, but each body part has specific exercises he has tested and likes.
As for your current plan I think it sounds good if you are gaining size, thats awesome. I would say as long as you are adding reps the progression will take care of itself. Meaning if on day one your 2 sets to failure total 24 reps and the next day its 26, then 35 by the end of the week its probably good. Adding a set would increase the workload by quite a bit, which doesn’t matter much with a once-a-week system, but every day it adds up FAST.
I think a “Staley” type of progression might work a bit better than adding sets to control for fatigue. Meaning set a range like 20-25, and once you get to 25 total reps you add 5 pounds and work back up to 25 reps across the 2 sets. This way the volume stays at a manageable level but load increase allows for the continued progression.
I think a “Staley” type of progression might work a bit better than adding sets to control for fatigue. Meaning set a range like 20-25, and once you get to 25 total reps you add 5 pounds and work back up to 25 reps across the 2 sets. This way the volume stays at a manageable level but load increase allows for the continued progression.[/quote]
This is exactly what I have done actually. Once I’ve gotten to 2x13 I added weight and ended up back around 2x10 and worked back up. Though I would hardly give credit to Staley for that lol that’s pretty much standard progression taught by many/most
1 week left starting today. I think I’ll probably finish biceps and wait 2 weeks at which point I’ll be doing an overall deload (will have been 6 weeks on Bulgarian at that point and it’s hard on the body), then try delts like you did.
