T Nation

The Fourth Republican Debate


#1

What are most of you expecting from the fourth Republican debate?

I am looking at a few things:

Will Jeb Bush be able to shake the loser image that he has earned and come out looking strong tonight? He always looks very uncomfortable on the debate stage.

Due to two less candidates on the stage more time will be given to each candidate. Will Trump look (even more) like a rookie with more time to speak?

Will Ben Carson reveal more facts regarding his 15% flat tax proposal? And will the moderators bring up the minutia that Carson has been dogged with over the past couple of weeks? It seems true that liberals really hate conservative blacks and women.

Will Marco Rubio shine with more time to talk? Also, will one of the other candidates namely Trump attack him regarding his credit card controversy?

I expect a strong performance by Ted Cruz he has done nothing less in all 3 previous debates...but will it matter in the polls?

Carly Fiorina always a threat on the debate stage needs a strong performance to once again be considered as a real threat to take the nomination. She seems to have fizzled out as of late. Maybe she's just hanging in there for the VP spot as many (at least on the undercard) are doing.

Can any of the other candidates show enough strength to make gains and move to the next level?

Your thoughts?


#2

I thought this was the best debated so far. Imo no one “won” but most had solid substantive things to say. Kasich ended his campaign though. The whole bank comment, which made sense if you can read between the lines, just didn’t come off right. I thought Trump say nothing as usual, but I’m sure his base thought he did great.


#3

I’ll try and post a little more later…but Bush (along with Kasich) should be done.

Jeb didn’t make any huge gaffs…and perhaps at another time, with another group of candidates, he would have been fine; but he hit a couple of uninspiring singles when he needed the proverbial “Home Run”.

I also usually watch various commentary afterwards; and I can’t remember who spoke on his behalf afterwards (his “spokesman”?); but he was terribly defensive and sounded like he was reading from some notes that Bush had scribbled to him quickly before he came on. He didn’t even LOOK like he believed what he was saying.

What will be interesting is how long Bush will limp along because of pride and money.

I really liked what Cruz had to say about taxes and abolishing the IRS. I doubt any of it will ever happen…but one can surely hope…

More later…

Mufasa


#4

Had some personal things going and ended up watching from a series of 8 youtube clips, I think the seriousness/format/moderators killed their predecessors.

Bush came out on first question with authority & I thought wow,he quickly regained his typical form and by the end I was fast forwarding through both his and Kasich’s replies. Trump was pretty understated, Carson seems like a wonderful person and no more deserving of being President than the man in the moon. Fiorina and Paul are often on point but damn unlikable to me.

At this point, I wonder if the Internet has become a better option for the discerning voter. Most of the candidates state that their programs on on their site for review (haven’t looked at any yet). Otherwise we are mostly just hearing the same old, same old of “My plan is the only…”; “that reminds me of Joe Smith a single father working 3 jobs with no insurance…”; “with my plan - Russia/Iran/ISIS will lay down their arms, China will forgive our debts, so many companies will come here that each American will hold 2.6 jobs”.

I think their only worthwhile point is seeing how a person presents themselves, thinks on their feet, and handles hostility like a leader.


#5

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I’ll try and post a little more later…but Bush (along with Kasich) should be done.

Jeb didn’t make any huge gaffs…and perhaps at another time, with another group of candidates, he would have been fine; but he hit a couple of uninspiring singles when he needed the proverbial “Home Run”.

I also usually watch various commentary afterwards; and I can’t remember who spoke on his behalf afterwards (his “spokesman”?); but he was terribly defensive and sounded like he was reading from some notes that Bush had scribbled to him quickly before he came on. He didn’t even LOOK like he believed what he was saying.

What will be interesting is how long Bush will limp along because of pride and money.

I really liked what Cruz had to say about taxes and abolishing the IRS. I doubt any of it will ever happen…but one can surely hope…

More later…

Mufasa [/quote]

Cruz was correct to tie illegal immigration with the minimum wage.

Low wages in this country are a problem, but setting an arbitrary minimum wage is not the answer. It’s basically an attempt to legislate away the law of supply and demand. You might as well make gravity illegal. When there is too much cheap, illegal, labor flowing across USA borders, supply of cheap workers is far too high, and wages will be depressed.

The answer is not to fight the laws of economics, but to choke off the supply of illegal workers who depress wages.

It’s not an answer the elites of both parties want to hear, but it is the answer.


#6

What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?


#7

I’m with Rand. What say you all?


#8

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?[/quote]

Make it mandatory for employers to check legal status of all employees and keep the record of citizenship on file – right now the law is a joke and basically punishes employers for checking legality.

Make it a federal crime to knowingly employ an illegal and whoever checks the paperwork (or was supposed to) goes to prison if they fail to do their job.

There will be massive self-deportation.


#9

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I’ll try and post a little more later…but Bush (along with Kasich) should be done.

Jeb didn’t make any huge gaffs…and perhaps at another time, with another group of candidates, he would have been fine; but he hit a couple of uninspiring singles when he needed the proverbial “Home Run”.

I also usually watch various commentary afterwards; and I can’t remember who spoke on his behalf afterwards (his “spokesman”?); but he was terribly defensive and sounded like he was reading from some notes that Bush had scribbled to him quickly before he came on. He didn’t even LOOK like he believed what he was saying.

What will be interesting is how long Bush will limp along because of pride and money.

I really liked what Cruz had to say about taxes and abolishing the IRS. I doubt any of it will ever happen…but one can surely hope…

More later…

Mufasa [/quote]

I think you are spot on regarding old Jeb. He just seemed awkward and unconvincing last night


#10

I thought overall Rubio, Cruz and Fiorina did best. Trump did the worst and I have no idea if anyone heard one of his comments to Kasich. Kasich schooled Trump on his Ohio record and Trump turned to him and said “I’m worth 10 billion dollars and I’ve heard enough of you.” or something to that affect. I thought Trump let a bit of his dark side shine through with that comment. Also, as usual he was light on specifics.

Carson while a very smart and likeable guy just does not belong in a race for the Presidency. His lack of depth (like Trump’s) shows through with every debate performance in my opinion.

Kasich’s comment regarding the banking system was just a mess. Also claiming that he’d allow those who “can afford it” to lose their money If a bank went down was ridiculous and he drew boos when he said it.

Bush just never comes across well in these debates even though I thought he had a couple of really good answers…he’s just awkward.

Rand Paul should be debating at the kids table next time around. His views on foreign policy are naïve and out of touch with what I think most voters want right now. I’d also like to see Kasich join him along with Jeb Bush.


#11

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?[/quote]

Make it mandatory for employers to check legal status of all employees and keep the record of citizenship on file – right now the law is a joke and basically punishes employers for checking legality.

Make it a federal crime to knowingly employ an illegal and whoever checks the paperwork (or was supposed to) goes to prison if they fail to do their job.

There will be massive self-deportation.[/quote]

I could be wrong on this but I already think it is a crime to employ an illegal alien. But, Obama has squashed any desire for the criminal justice system to do their jobs.


#12

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#13

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?[/quote]

Make it mandatory for employers to check legal status of all employees and keep the record of citizenship on file – right now the law is a joke and basically punishes employers for checking legality.

Make it a federal crime to knowingly employ an illegal and whoever checks the paperwork (or was supposed to) goes to prison if they fail to do their job.

There will be massive self-deportation.[/quote]

I agree. Simultaneously, welfare benefits must only be provided after legality has been established.

If no work and no welfare is the result they won’t need immigration officers rounding them up. If I’m wrong what am I missing?
[/quote]

I have a hard time with the logistics and inevitable civil unrest that would come from mass deportations. There should be a way for those law abiding people to pay a fine, their employers pay a fine, and some probationary period to allow them to stay.

We must have a secure border, like every other nation on earth. Not sure how a wall will prevent the tunnels tho…


#14

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?[/quote]

Make it mandatory for employers to check legal status of all employees and keep the record of citizenship on file – right now the law is a joke and basically punishes employers for checking legality.

Make it a federal crime to knowingly employ an illegal and whoever checks the paperwork (or was supposed to) goes to prison if they fail to do their job.

There will be massive self-deportation.[/quote]

I agree. Simultaneously, welfare benefits must only be provided after legality has been established.

If no work and no welfare is the result they won’t need immigration officers rounding them up. If I’m wrong what am I missing?
[/quote]

Is that what Trump is proposing when he says he will deport all illegals? Honest question, because I read it differently. Aren’t most/all the candidates for E-verify systems to check legal status for employment?


#15

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:
What’s everyone’s opinion on the ‘Trump deportation’ debate?

I agree with Kasich who said “Come on, folks. We all know you can’t pick them up and ship them back across the border. It’s a silly argument. It is not an adult argument. It makes no sense”. Trump responded by saying Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out, “We have no choice”. Bush chimed in saying Clinton is doing high-fives hearing this.

I do not think it is reasonable to claim you can deport 11 million people and have that be a positive thing. Who agrees with Trump? Can you explain how it would be possible?[/quote]

Make it mandatory for employers to check legal status of all employees and keep the record of citizenship on file – right now the law is a joke and basically punishes employers for checking legality.

Make it a federal crime to knowingly employ an illegal and whoever checks the paperwork (or was supposed to) goes to prison if they fail to do their job.

There will be massive self-deportation.[/quote]

I agree. Simultaneously, welfare benefits must only be provided after legality has been established.

If no work and no welfare is the result they won’t need immigration officers rounding them up. If I’m wrong what am I missing?
[/quote]

I have a hard time with the logistics and inevitable civil unrest that would come from mass deportations. There should be a way for those law abiding people to pay a fine, their employers pay a fine, and some probationary period to allow them to stay.

We must have a secure border, like every other nation on earth. Not sure how a wall will prevent the tunnels tho…
[/quote]

Or visa over-stays.

I don’t think the wall will do anything to prevent illegal immigration. It is not that simple.


#16

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#17

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#18

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Drew1411 wrote:

I don’t think the wall will do anything to prevent illegal immigration…

[/quote]

Common sense says it has to. And other borders, including a section of ours near Yuma, AZ with walls, PROVES it does something to prevent illegal immigration.
[/quote]

What’s the ground below the wall look like? The tunnels being built are respectable engineering achievements designed to smuggle drugs. The wall will help, but it’s not the answer.


#19

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#20

Who is the Federal Government to tell me who I can and cannot hire?