The Federal Goverment and Individual Civil Rights?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

You have two options when it comes to states not following the constitution. Move or bear arms and fix your government by force. Of course this takes a larger than one man army to accomplish, which is the reason for the second amendment (in my thinking and in reading).

  • Brother[/quote]

In your thinking and reading? Have you even read the thing? Article 6 clearly states that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and all of the states are bound to follow it. It does not say that if the state violates the Constitution that “yall are on your own.”

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

“What is the role, if any, of the Federal Government in enforcing individual Civil Rights?”

[/quote]

One of the arguments early on the creation of the US was whether or not rights/liberty are inherent, or natural (God given if you like). With that in mind, there was a debate about whether or not the Constitution should enumerate rights of the individual, or if it could be a document, and we could have a government, that from the start assumed all rights, and limited a few: in other words, is the Constitution a limiting document (defining the limits on our rights) or is it a positive document defining our rights. Well, the former group won the argument, and the constitution sans the amendments, was written to describe the limits of our rights, and the limits of government… natural rights are assumed.

But it took about no time for people (like Adams) to start passing things like the Alien and Sedition Acts… and those realities moved people back to the position that we needed a positive document like the Bill of Rights to ensure and enumerate specific rights… Does that now mean if it’s not enumerated, it’s not a right?

It sure gets treated like that a lot now…

But I think we can for the most part agree that the US government was setup with the individual, not the group, as the unit, and the post Civil War amendments I think make it very clear that the Federal Government has the duty to step into protect the rights of the individual from the abuses of other individuals or groups.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

Did it overstep it’s bounds in the past? (e.g. Ike sending in Paratroopers to enforce Federal Law).

Is this a “local” issue?

[/quote]

One issue is that when the Constitution was written, and really until post-reconstruction we were THESE UNITED STATES of America not The United States. The country really was a Federation of individual States more than a single nation. So when we think about what the federal government might do now, or in recent history, like send in national troops, while that probably wouldn’t have occurred to the founders (our national Army and Navy were disbanded right after the treaty of Paris), I think they would have found it reasonable and expected that the “National Will” would have been projected into States violating such rights by a coalition of State Armies or militias.

I don’t think the Federal Government can overstep its bounds in protecting the individual’s rights from the tyrany of the group.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

Do you think that the Constitution would have eventually “taken care of” the basic rights that were being denied to women and minorities?

[/quote]

It did, so to speak. Are you thinking about the amendments as not the “Constitution taking care of” these things? Because those are now part of the Constitution…

…but there never was a Civil Rights Amendment. That’s where the interpretative power of the Judiciary comes in. If we could go back in time, and but a 21st Century Supreme Court in Power in 1800, the same case that was made in the last century, that everything that White Men got in the Constitution actually applies to all, could have pretty easily been applied. The argument didn’t use new facts.

That is part of what happens when you have a document that uses such broad language however, and was originally crafted by the people who believed in Natural Rights, and a document that limited government, rather than visa versa.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What do you mean by the Constitution eventually “taking care of” individuals rights for minorities and women? Without amendment? If so, I think the answer is no.

The founding fathers understood that people were not equal. That is why land owners were the ones that voted. How it would take care of itself, by the people seeing that things are not comfortable with slavery/suffrage/etc. the government would then fix it.

  • Brother[/quote]

You’re confused. Equality has nothing to do with Natural Rights. You can be a rich white genius, and I can be a poor, stupid Cambodian. No one is going to say we are the same, or that we are somehow “equal”. He still have the same, unlimited Natural Rights, which we give up (to a degree) to our government in order to form a society. This is the bread an butter of the Enlightenment Era thinking that shaped our form of government.

We don’t have to be equal to have the same rights under the law.

The end of Slavery was built into the Constitution, with the end illegality of importing slaves in there. The only reason it was not there is that our slave-owning brothers in the south might have left the Union before the country had a chance had abolition been a condition of its existence.

It had nothing to do with comfort, and ultimately a very bloody war, that leaves scars to this day, would have to be fought over this.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

How it would take care of itself, by the people seeing that things are not comfortable with slavery/suffrage/etc. the government would then fix it.[/quote]

When people passed civil rights laws at the federal level with the mechanism for the federal government to intervene when states or localities denied justice to an American citizen, that was exactly the principle in play of “the people fixing it”.

[quote]Spartiates wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What do you mean by the Constitution eventually “taking care of” individuals rights for minorities and women? Without amendment? If so, I think the answer is no.

The founding fathers understood that people were not equal. That is why land owners were the ones that voted. How it would take care of itself, by the people seeing that things are not comfortable with slavery/suffrage/etc. the government would then fix it.

  • Brother

You’re confused. Equality has nothing to do with Natural Rights. You can be a rich white genius, and I can be a poor, stupid Cambodian. No one is going to say we are the same, or that we are somehow “equal”. He still have the same, unlimited Natural Rights, which we give up (to a degree) to our government in order to form a society. This is the bread an butter of the Enlightenment Era thinking that shaped our form of government.

We don’t have to be equal to have the same rights under the law.

The end of Slavery was built into the Constitution, with the end illegality of importing slaves in there. The only reason it was not there is that our slave-owning brothers in the south might have left the Union before the country had a chance had abolition been a condition of its existence.

It had nothing to do with comfort, and ultimately a very bloody war, that leaves scars to this day, would have to be fought over this.
[/quote]

Equality has several, um, unequal meanings. In the case of the US it means “the same voting rights, and same rights before the law”. Outside of this meaning, everything gets murky. Some people mean equality of means (argument for huge income taxes on the rich, since it’s not fair they can afford private school or tutors), equality of origin (all men may be created equal, but racists aren’t so sure), equality of result (argument for a lot of hiring quotas – it is irrelevant if you are competent for a given job, hire any one based on a social need) These are the main ones, and there are several others. Most left-wing social legislation tries to champion one of these as a social goal. None of them hit the mark. Kurt Vonnegut wrote a simply hilarious short story about a future where every one is required to be handicapped (Harrison Bergeron). Check it out.

– jj