T Nation

The Facts About Mass Shootings (Article)

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well crime in general is also down and I think that’s what your chart reflects. There are several reasons for this. But that’s not the subject matter. I am talking about the slaughter of innocent people. Gooogle that one and see what you come up with.

[/quote]

I don’t see any evidence that the slaughter of innocents is on the rise either.

In fact, the article that the OP cited–which can’t exactly be accused of liberal bias–claims that:

"Mass shootings are no more common than they have been in past decades, despite the impression given by the media.

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

Incidents of mass murder in the U.S. declined from 42 in the 1990s to 26 in the first decade of this century."

So, it would seem that the taking of prayer out of the classroom has not had any measurable effect on this kind of violence in the United States.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well crime in general is also down and I think that’s what your chart reflects. There are several reasons for this. But that’s not the subject matter. I am talking about the slaughter of innocent people. Gooogle that one and see what you come up with.

[/quote]

I don’t see any evidence that the slaughter of innocents is on the rise either.

In fact, the article that the OP cited–which can’t exactly be accused of liberal bias–claims that:

"Mass shootings are no more common than they have been in past decades, despite the impression given by the media.

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

Incidents of mass murder in the U.S. declined from 42 in the 1990s to 26 in the first decade of this century."

So, it would seem that the taking of prayer out of the classroom has not had any measurable effect on this kind of violence in the United States.[/quote]

Take a check and see how many school children were killed by crazy people over the past several decades in the US.

Let me know what you come up with as I am very curious.

There is no ‘rhyme or reason’ where Violence happens whatever the ‘belief’ or
‘faith’ of a Country or City.
Again, Tokyo is 98% Buddhist/Shinto, and Assaults and Murders on their Streets in this massive
metroplis is extremely low, compare that with a Tiny town by comparison smack dab in the
middle of the “Bible Belt”, Little Rock Arkansas and their Assaults and Rapes are HIGHER
than all of Tokyo.
Cause and Effect regarding the consequences of the general beliefs of an area SHOULD dictate that
Little Rock Arkansas should be the safest city on the face of the Earth, but it isn’t, not even
close.
Keep in mind I WANT this cause and effect to be true, that Bible Belt cities like Nashville or Little Rock are the safest places around because they have a special protection, or are blessed because they’re heavily Christian because then I can DEFEND that, but I cant do that, because it just isn’t true.

[quote]Karado wrote:
There is no ‘rhyme or reason’ as far as Violence goes anyway whatever the ‘belief’ or
‘faith’ of Country.
Again, Tokyo is 98% Buddhist/Shinto, and Assaults and Murders on their Streets in this massive
metroplis is extremely low, compare that with a Tiny town by comparison smack dab in the
middle of the “Bible Belt”, Little Rock Arkansas and their Assaults and Rapes are HIGHER
than all of Tokyo.
Cause and Effect regarding the consequences of the general beliefs of an area SHOULD dictate that
Little Rock Arkansas should be the safest city on the face of the Earth, but it isn’t, not even
close.
[/quote]

One more time, this is not Japan or the Netherlands, this is America. And we cannot have a system of values (Christianity) pulled out from under an entire nation and replaced with nothing but the slime of pop culture and not have negative consequences.

Simple.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well crime in general is also down and I think that’s what your chart reflects. There are several reasons for this. But that’s not the subject matter. I am talking about the slaughter of innocent people. Gooogle that one and see what you come up with.

[/quote]

I don’t see any evidence that the slaughter of innocents is on the rise either.

In fact, the article that the OP cited–which can’t exactly be accused of liberal bias–claims that:

"Mass shootings are no more common than they have been in past decades, despite the impression given by the media.

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

Incidents of mass murder in the U.S. declined from 42 in the 1990s to 26 in the first decade of this century."

So, it would seem that the taking of prayer out of the classroom has not had any measurable effect on this kind of violence in the United States.[/quote]

Take a check and see how many school children were killed by crazy people over the past several decades in the US.

Let me know what you come up with as I am very curious. [/quote]

Is the main article wrong then? Specifically about the 1929 high point.

If a lack of religion (particularly Judeo-Christian religion) was to blame, you’d expect that Europe’s streets would be flooded with blood, given how non-religious most of western Europe is. I also have a hard time seeing how you can blame atheism for one type of crime (mass shootings) while admitting that we’re less violent than we were 50 or 70 years ago (seriously, murder rates in the 30s were scary and dwarf modern ones).

It’s an argument made despite real world counter-examples. You can feel free to argue it, but understand you have absolutely no data for it so it’s hard to take that argument seriously.

This ignores that other crime is down. How do you argue that this ONE TYPE of violent crime in one place (public schools) is directly caused by a lack of prayer in schools while other violent crime declines? You’re wrong about the last few decades being the most violent in schools or the only ones/worst ones for school killings (google “Bath school disaster”) but even if you were right, you’re only showing a tenuous correlation, which is a far cry from causation. That’s like saying that music piracy increased along with the decline of maritime piracy and therefore must be caused by it.

Also, those other nations weren’t always atheistic. They somehow shifted cultures and survived.

Yeah, my Japan comment earlier should have included other countries as well,
It bothers me now because I USED to believe it was because of the lack of prayer in schools,
etc. etc. …I WANTED to believe it because I believe in Christianity in general, even though
I have Ginourmous issues with how ‘Man’ has twisted it to the point cacophany…but I digress,
again I emphasize greatly, I truly want to believe that violence in America is because of
of increased secularism, and I have actually stated that it was, it is complicit, but only
to a point because I’ve known very good and peaceful folk who are athiests.

My mistake was I tend see most athiests like how Bill Maher is athiest, Bill isn’t just simply
just an athiest, he’s a mean spirited and merciless Christian attacker and mocker,
which most athiests are not, yet obviously some of them seem to be.
I generally agree with ZEB, but his quote that you posted from him is a little
confounding, a little bizarre because he’s suggesting a ‘cause and effect’ thing
because we are becoming more secular, but the overall stats simply don’t bear that out.

[quote]Karado wrote:

My mistake was I tend see most athiests like how Bill Maher is athiest, Bill isn’t just simply
just an athiest, he’s a mean spirited and merciless Christian attacker and mocker[/quote]

Agreed, but I wouldn’t tie that to putting a bullet in a child.

Again, true insanity or evil or whatever you’d like to call this does not know religious or cultural boundaries.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:

My mistake was I tend see most athiests like how Bill Maher is athiest, Bill isn’t just simply
just an athiest, he’s a mean spirited and merciless Christian attacker and mocker[/quote]

Agreed, but I wouldn’t tie that to putting a bullet in a child.

Again, true insanity or evil or whatever you’d like to call this does not know religious or cultural boundaries.[/quote]

This is what I was trying to say.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well crime in general is also down and I think that’s what your chart reflects. There are several reasons for this. But that’s not the subject matter. I am talking about the slaughter of innocent people. Gooogle that one and see what you come up with.

[/quote]

I don’t see any evidence that the slaughter of innocents is on the rise either.

In fact, the article that the OP cited–which can’t exactly be accused of liberal bias–claims that:

"Mass shootings are no more common than they have been in past decades, despite the impression given by the media.

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

Incidents of mass murder in the U.S. declined from 42 in the 1990s to 26 in the first decade of this century."

So, it would seem that the taking of prayer out of the classroom has not had any measurable effect on this kind of violence in the United States.[/quote]

Take a check and see how many school children were killed by crazy people over the past several decades in the US.

Let me know what you come up with as I am very curious. [/quote]

Is the main article wrong then? Specifically about the 1929 high point.[/quote]

I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

This is more about feelings and archetypes than data.

Your interpretation puts a bit too much stock in the Hollywood conception of the West. In reality it was more “Blood Meridian” and less “Gunsmoke.”

But anyway, you may in fact be right about a rise in this particular kind of violence (I have no idea and don’t have the time to try and figure it out). But that would need substantiation, and even then I would still contend that there are countless social, technological, and cultural shifts competing with secularization (which hasn’t brought great bloodshed to Western Europe, for example) for causal authority.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

Bringing in the type of violence is an important point.

I was thinking along these lines in that for the amount of scientific and technological advancement mankind has made, the moral and spiritual ( religion is a means to and end which is spirituality, IMO ) development of mankind has not matched.

If anything it looks like we have gone backwards, which is this void i think ZEB is talking about.

This generation of atheists still has at least grandparents that were raised with a type of faith.

The laws in place are still resembling of a Godly moral compass.

These are all things to consider.

But more importantly, the type of violence:

I regularly read on the news husbands killing wives, son killing father attempting to kill wife, mothers killing children, children killing children…

Have these been common before in a time that matches up with such great scientific advancement?

If there is no God then how does evolution explain scientific and intellectual pioneering and moral decline?

How can we be so advanced in one way and go backwards in another?

You’ve always been more likely to die at the hands of a friend or relation than a stranger, which make a surprising amount of sense. I mean, if I don’t know you, why would I kill you? Money or pure sociopathy is all I can come up with.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

I think you are grossly underestimating how incredibly bloody and violent the past 2000 years have been. The conquistadors were strict Christians, and they slaughtered thousands of innocents (including children). Again, thousands of innocents were killed in the Crusades. I’m sure plenty of Native American innocents were killed by settlers.

And in more recent times, hundreds of thousands of religious women and children in the Middle East are being killed by people who are also religious.

I’m not saying that religion is the CAUSE of these tragedies, I’m saying it’s ridiculous to think such tragedies didn’t exist before atheism was common, let alone actually attribute them to atheism. I’m not attacking religion here, you can believe whatever you like, I just don’t like being part of a minority that is blamed for things it has no hand in, I’m sure you can appreciate that.

Also, you haven’t managed to explain why Western Europe (also built on strict Christian values but now far more atheist than the States) doesn’t have the problems you are talking about.

Also also, I think you might have missed my earlier post Zeb, as you didn’t respond to it.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

Bringing in the type of violence is an important point.

I was thinking along these lines in that for the amount of scientific and technological advancement mankind has made, the moral and spiritual ( religion is a means to and end which is spirituality, IMO ) development of mankind has not matched.

If anything it looks like we have gone backwards, which is this void i think ZEB is talking about.

This generation of atheists still has at least grandparents that were raised with a type of faith.

The laws in place are still resembling of a Godly moral compass.

These are all things to consider.

But more importantly, the type of violence:

I regularly read on the news husbands killing wives, son killing father attempting to kill wife, mothers killing children, children killing children…

Have these been common before in a time that matches up with such great scientific advancement?

If there is no God then how does evolution explain scientific and intellectual pioneering and moral decline?

How can we be so advanced in one way and go backwards in another?
[/quote]

Yes but we also don’t have slavery anymore, I think that cancels out some of the other moral declines, maybe at worst we are at least equal to the morality of the past.

Also I would not consider domestic violence in this. In the past women had less freedoms so there was less motives for any husband to kill them, I would say that is much more of a factor than decline in morality.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

This is more about feelings and archetypes than data.

Your interpretation puts a bit too much stock in the Hollywood conception of the West. In reality it was more “Blood Meridian” and less “Gunsmoke.”

But anyway, you may in fact be right about a rise in this particular kind of violence (I have no idea and don’t have the time to try and figure it out). But that would need substantiation, and even then I would still contend that there are countless social, technological, and cultural shifts competing with secularization (which hasn’t brought great bloodshed to Western Europe, for example) for causal authority.[/quote]

Actually, I’m an old west buff and I know what I’m talking about. Gunsmoke and other TV shows and movies like that are poor depictions of the true west. There were very few gunfights in the middle of the street, showdowns at high noon didn’t happen. Of course there are a few exceptions to the rule. Wild Bill Hickock shot a man through the heart in one of those rare showdowns. But I digress. There was a chivalry back then that lasted well into the 20th century. They didn’t even hang women (possibly one maybe two) in the old west. And as I said the bad guys never broke into a school house and killed innocent children.

They had self respect and a moral code.

Look around today when you go to the Mall or just walk around in the town you live in.

-Fat people wearing jogging cloths looking like they just rolled out of bed.

-Profanity is ramped everywhere you go and much of TV and almost every movie.

-Complete disrespect for other human beings

-Crime’s against children are up, way up! Sexual crimes, abuse, killing etc. It makes me sick!

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/crimes_against_children

Everyone is the center of their own universe. And this is what happens when we threw God out of the public school system. When there is no God YOU become your own God. Think about it. Does one value another human being more or less if they believe that there is no God who created mankind?

I know you place a high value on data and statistics (which are not flawless as they can be manipulated and I have examples of that) But there is also a such thing as empirical data.

Maybe I’ve lived long enough to see the dramatic shift.

But there has been a shift. There has been a real change over the past 30 years my friend. And it is not for the good.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

Bringing in the type of violence is an important point.

I was thinking along these lines in that for the amount of scientific and technological advancement mankind has made, the moral and spiritual ( religion is a means to and end which is spirituality, IMO ) development of mankind has not matched.

If anything it looks like we have gone backwards, which is this void i think ZEB is talking about.

This generation of atheists still has at least grandparents that were raised with a type of faith.

The laws in place are still resembling of a Godly moral compass.

These are all things to consider.

But more importantly, the type of violence:

I regularly read on the news husbands killing wives, son killing father attempting to kill wife, mothers killing children, children killing children…

Have these been common before in a time that matches up with such great scientific advancement?

If there is no God then how does evolution explain scientific and intellectual pioneering and moral decline?

How can we be so advanced in one way and go backwards in another?
[/quote]

Very well said!

[quote]furo wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

I think you are grossly underestimating how incredibly bloody and violent the past 2000 years have been. The conquistadors were strict Christians, and they slaughtered thousands of innocents (including children). Again, thousands of innocents were killed in the Crusades. I’m sure plenty of Native American innocents were killed by settlers.

And in more recent times, hundreds of thousands of religious women and children in the Middle East are being killed by people who are also religious.

I’m not saying that religion is the CAUSE of these tragedies, I’m saying it’s ridiculous to think such tragedies didn’t exist before atheism was common, let alone actually attribute them to atheism. I’m not attacking religion here, you can believe whatever you like, I just don’t like being part of a minority that is blamed for things it has no hand in, I’m sure you can appreciate that.

Also, you haven’t managed to explain why Western Europe (also built on strict Christian values but now far more atheist than the States) doesn’t have the problems you are talking about.

Also also, I think you might have missed my earlier post Zeb, as you didn’t respond to it. [/quote]

I am talking about the US. I am well aware of the violence that has taken place over the past 2000 years of humanity. We can begin with the capture horrible beating and eventual crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t know enough abot the writer or the article to know if it is factual but assuming that it is it doesn’t tell the entire picture. I guess I’m looking at it from a different angle. There can be an argument made that the time period that we live in is far less violent than say 1850 to 1900. But it’s the type of violence that is troublesome. Even in the wild west you didn’t see bad guys kicking down the doors at a school house and shooting children. It was men fighting with guns against other men who also had guns.

And I am not just talking about shootings.
[/quote]

I think you are grossly underestimating how incredibly bloody and violent the past 2000 years have been. The conquistadors were strict Christians, and they slaughtered thousands of innocents (including children). Again, thousands of innocents were killed in the Crusades. I’m sure plenty of Native American innocents were killed by settlers.

And in more recent times, hundreds of thousands of religious women and children in the Middle East are being killed by people who are also religious.

I’m not saying that religion is the CAUSE of these tragedies, I’m saying it’s ridiculous to think such tragedies didn’t exist before atheism was common, let alone actually attribute them to atheism. I’m not attacking religion here, you can believe whatever you like, I just don’t like being part of a minority that is blamed for things it has no hand in, I’m sure you can appreciate that.

Also, you haven’t managed to explain why Western Europe (also built on strict Christian values but now far more atheist than the States) doesn’t have the problems you are talking about.

Also also, I think you might have missed my earlier post Zeb, as you didn’t respond to it. [/quote]

I am talking about the US. I am well aware of the violence that has taken place over the past 2000 years of humanity. We can begin with the capture horrible beating and eventual crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

Why would Christianity/lack of Christianity affect the US differently to the rest of the world?