T Nation

The Facts About Mass Shootings (Article)

A few things you wonâ??t hear about from the saturation coverage of the Newtown, Conn., school massacre:

Mass shootings are no more common than they have been in past decades, despite the impression given by the media.

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

I’m actually a little surprised the odds of being a victim of a mass shooting is as good as the odds of being struck by lightening. I was just thinking about this and wondering if it was closer to the odds of being a power-ball winner.

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

In fact, the high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929, according to criminologist Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections.

[/quote]

“Which was the start of the great depression”.

I think the lightning fact is true. This one has me thinking though…

?With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.?

  1. Does this count CCW?

  2. What kind of indoor public places are not gun free these days? If almost everything is “gun free” then the killers didn’t necessarily target gun free zones and its more of a symptom of many people in an enclosed area. Basically I think this statistic is meaningless. Might as well say they targeted non-smoking areas since that is everything indoors these days.

Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?

Anyway on the bright side, we are becoming a more peaceful world in comparison to how it
was, and this exhaustively researched thick new book by respected author Steven Pinker lays it out
and states his very strong case for it, it’s not a ‘rose colored glasses’ kind of book,
just realistic.

“Gun Free Zone” is the epitome of ‘feel good legislation’ and is about as useful as tits on a boar.

Locks are for honest people.

[quote]Karado wrote:
how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

Are you really blaming these events on atheism? But then go on to say that the world is a more peaceful place now?

I am an atheist, but out of my closest friends 2 are catholic and 3 are muslim. I pride myself on religious tolerance. I’m not trying to say that atheism is superior, but just defend my personal beliefs.

The US isn’t a particularly atheist nation. The most atheist areas in this world are Canada, Europe, New Zealand and Australia. I’m willing to bet that these areas are also some of the least violent. I’m not suggesting that they are peaceful because they are more atheist, I’m saying that these areas indicate that atheism does not lead to an increase in violence.

EDITED

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the lightning fact is true. This one has me thinking though…

?With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.?

  1. Does this count CCW?

  2. What kind of indoor public places are not gun free these days? If almost everything is “gun free” then the killers didn’t necessarily target gun free zones and its more of a symptom of many people in an enclosed area. Basically I think this statistic is meaningless. Might as well say they targeted non-smoking areas since that is everything indoors these days.[/quote]

I see your point, as pretty much everyone is “gun-free” nowadays.

But then again, look at this quote from the article:

“the Aurora shooter, who killed twelve people earlier this year, had a choice of seven movie theaters that were showing the Batman movie he was obsessed with. All were within a 20-minute drive of his home. The Cinemark Theater the killer ultimately chose wasnâ??t the closest, but it was the only one that posted signs saying it banned concealed handguns”

[quote]furo wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

Are you really blaming these events on atheism?

But then go on to say that the world is a more peaceful place now?[/quote]

Yea, this is almost as dumb as the people who think banning guns will stop the shootings.

Even the father of one of the victims of Columbine tried to blame the problem on the “banning” of prayer in schools. Religion is not the problem, refer to the dark ages.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

BINGO!

A word to the atheists on the board. Whether you believe in God or not they system has worked for many years. When you take it away (prayer out of school etc.) what is it replaced with?

NOTHING!

You are really going to hate the end result of what you are seeking.

[quote]Chris87 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I think the lightning fact is true. This one has me thinking though…

?With just one single exception, the attack on congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in Tucson in 2011, every public shooting since at least 1950 in the U.S. in which more than three people have been killed has taken place where citizens are not allowed to carry guns.?

  1. Does this count CCW?

  2. What kind of indoor public places are not gun free these days? If almost everything is “gun free” then the killers didn’t necessarily target gun free zones and its more of a symptom of many people in an enclosed area. Basically I think this statistic is meaningless. Might as well say they targeted non-smoking areas since that is everything indoors these days.[/quote]

I see your point, as pretty much everyone is “gun-free” nowadays.

But then again, look at this quote from the article:

“the Aurora shooter, who killed twelve people earlier this year, had a choice of seven movie theaters that were showing the Batman movie he was obsessed with. All were within a 20-minute drive of his home. The Cinemark Theater the killer ultimately chose wasnâ??t the closest, but it was the only one that posted signs saying it banned concealed handguns”
[/quote]

Yes that quote is true, which is why my first thought was does it include CCW for any of the other shootings? It seems like some of the mass shootings in the last 20 years would have been in areas that allowed CCW which is then technically not a gun free zone.

I think the word “reflection” should be officially outlawed from use, talk about jumping the shark.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

BINGO!

A word to the atheists on the board. Whether you believe in God or not they system has worked for many years. When you take it away (prayer out of school etc.) what is it replaced with?

NOTHING!

You are really going to hate the end result of what you are seeking.[/quote]

Not having prayed in school does not invite a man to murder children.

Religiosity does not cure the world of insanity.

Less than a third of Norwegians believe in God and it has one of the lowest homicide rates on earth.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

BINGO!

A word to the atheists on the board. Whether you believe in God or not they system has worked for many years. When you take it away (prayer out of school etc.) what is it replaced with?

NOTHING!

You are really going to hate the end result of what you are seeking.[/quote]

Not having prayed in school does not invite a man to murder children.

Religiosity does not cure the world of insanity.

Less than a third of Norwegians believe in God and it has one of the lowest homicide rates on earth.[/quote]

You just painted a picture with very large brush strokes my friend.

The United States of America has always relied on Judeo-Christian values. Prayer in school was a common occurrence prior to 1963 when the Supreme court ruled that it was no longer constitutional.

This has always been a culture of violence, but at the same time that violence was not directed at the innocent (usually), much less children. We used to know right from wrong because we had a unified compass called God. When God was removed from school (and is gradually being removed from our culture) there was/is nothing to replace it, nothing other than violent movies, video games, TV shows and yes even cartoons.

The typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person because religion has been removed and replaced with nothing other than pop culture and all the slime that comes with it. In world of relativism there is no right or wrong.

I wish I was wrong but you will see more of this type of thing. And the liberal media will not tell us the truth, just as they have not in this recent case. But they will turn their own form of weaponry on the NRA and the 2nd amendment.

We are headed for some very scary times. And yes it is because we have removed God from public school and increasingly from our (originally) God based culture. You don’t like it but it’s the truth!

I agree with you, but I guess you missed my link on Steven Pinker’s new book…Violence overall
has dropped quite a bit here in the last 20 years, so when you say scary times are ahead, well,
maybe in the future, but NOW, the overall the stats don’t bear that out in any way.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You just painted a picture with very large brush strokes my friend. [/quote]

Smh23 wrote hard undisputatable facts. Norway is one of the most atheist nations on this planet - fact. Norway has one of the lowest murder rates - fact. I don’t see how he can be accused of painting a false picture.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Prayer in school was a common occurrence prior to 1963 when the Supreme court ruled that it was no longer constitutional. [/quote]

The OPs article states that the “high point for mass killings in the U.S. was 1929”, well before prayer in schools was stopped.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
The typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person because religion has been removed and replaced with nothing other than pop culture and all the slime that comes with it. [/quote]

Is this actual fact? I’m genuinely interested, what are your sources? The link Karado posted says we are living in the most peaceful times the human race has experienced.

I was born in the 90s and I’m an atheist. To be perfectly honest, what you have said has offended me. I’m a med student. I’ve never committed a crime in my life. I’m in a committed long term relationship with a girl I intend to marry. The most precious thing in my life is my family. Do these sound like the values of a child-killing psychopath?

This isn’t to say I don’t think the world might be going down the shitter. This is just to say that atheism itself is not the cause. Violent video games aren’t atheism. Pop culture isn’t atheism.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

BINGO!

A word to the atheists on the board. Whether you believe in God or not they system has worked for many years. When you take it away (prayer out of school etc.) what is it replaced with?

NOTHING!

You are really going to hate the end result of what you are seeking.[/quote]

Not having prayed in school does not invite a man to murder children.

Religiosity does not cure the world of insanity.

Less than a third of Norwegians believe in God and it has one of the lowest homicide rates on earth.[/quote]

You just painted a picture with very large brush strokes my friend.

The United States of America has always relied on Judeo-Christian values. Prayer in school was a common occurrence prior to 1963 when the Supreme court ruled that it was no longer constitutional.

This has always been a culture of violence, but at the same time that violence was not directed at the innocent (usually), much less children. We used to know right from wrong because we had a unified compass called God. When God was removed from school (and is gradually being removed from our culture) there was/is nothing to replace it, nothing other than violent movies, video games, TV shows and yes even cartoons.

The typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person because religion has been removed and replaced with nothing other than pop culture and all the slime that comes with it. In world of relativism there is no right or wrong.

I wish I was wrong but you will see more of this type of thing. And the liberal media will not tell us the truth, just as they have not in this recent case. But they will turn their own form of weaponry on the NRA and the 2nd amendment.

We are headed for some very scary times. And yes it is because we have removed God from public school and increasingly from our (originally) God based culture. You don’t like it but it’s the truth![/quote]

You’re the one who’s using a broad brush. Are these opinions or facts? Do you have data which suggests that “the typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person,” or is that an impression you have? And in light of the dizzying social and technological changes we’re subjected to every couple of years these days, can you really establish a causal link between lack of prayer in school and this phenomenon, even if the latter exists?

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Thank you for this, goodness gracious man the media covered ONLY this for 3 days straight,
and mental illness aside, how else should we expect kids to act nowadays when they are taught moral relativism,there is no ‘good or bad’,and that we were descended from the wild apes of the jungle?
[/quote]

BINGO!

A word to the atheists on the board. Whether you believe in God or not they system has worked for many years. When you take it away (prayer out of school etc.) what is it replaced with?

NOTHING!

You are really going to hate the end result of what you are seeking.[/quote]

Not having prayed in school does not invite a man to murder children.

Religiosity does not cure the world of insanity.

Less than a third of Norwegians believe in God and it has one of the lowest homicide rates on earth.[/quote]

You just painted a picture with very large brush strokes my friend.

The United States of America has always relied on Judeo-Christian values. Prayer in school was a common occurrence prior to 1963 when the Supreme court ruled that it was no longer constitutional.

This has always been a culture of violence, but at the same time that violence was not directed at the innocent (usually), much less children. We used to know right from wrong because we had a unified compass called God. When God was removed from school (and is gradually being removed from our culture) there was/is nothing to replace it, nothing other than violent movies, video games, TV shows and yes even cartoons.

The typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person because religion has been removed and replaced with nothing other than pop culture and all the slime that comes with it. In world of relativism there is no right or wrong.

I wish I was wrong but you will see more of this type of thing. And the liberal media will not tell us the truth, just as they have not in this recent case. But they will turn their own form of weaponry on the NRA and the 2nd amendment.

We are headed for some very scary times. And yes it is because we have removed God from public school and increasingly from our (originally) God based culture. You don’t like it but it’s the truth![/quote]

You’re the one who’s using a broad brush. Are these opinions or facts? Do you have data which suggests that “the typical child born in the 90’s is more likely to commit an act of violence against an innocent person,” or is that an impression you have? And in light of the dizzying social and technological changes we’re subjected to every couple of years these days, can you really establish a causal link between lack of prayer in school and this phenomenon, even if the latter exists?[/quote]

My brush paints precisely.

But I know there are no amount of posts that will convince you. No one ever convinces anyone about anything on a message board. But, I will stand on my analysis. Knowing the history of our country and what has worked is my data. When you remove that you get chaos, we are living it and it will increase. But, you don’t believe me and I have no problem with that. Everyone lives with their own theories on why we are where we are. You have yours I have mine. If you don’t think pumping filth into our children’s minds and shunning God is not a contributor to the mess that we’re in then go on your merry way and think what you want. I’m cool with that.

I know that I’m correct and there isn’t enough data in the universe to convince you or any other God hater (not that you’re one) that God and religion were one of the building blocks to our country’s greatness.

So…here’s all we have to do. Sit back and wait 10-20 more years and see if things get better as the role of God and religion diminish. Of course many (maybe you) will blame everything under the sun including the NRA if more innocents die. But we who used to live in a far more moral society will know what went down and why.

Hey, I hope I’m wrong because the world that I see coming is not a pretty one.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
But we who used to live in a far more moral society will know what went down and why.

[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying and I respect your opinion. My contention is that this point above–that we are more violent today, that children of the '90s are more likely to harm a stranger for sport–needs to be substantiated (and is contradicted by the attached graphic). I’m not exactly sure its accurate. In fact, the link above claims that mass shootings peaked decades ago (not sure how accurate it is).

So, your point can’t even be considered until it’s shown that the premise on which it stands is accurate.

Well crime in general is also down and I think that’s what your chart reflects. There are several reasons for this. But that’s not the subject matter. I am talking about the slaughter of innocent people. Gooogle that one and see what you come up with.