T Nation

The Endurance Athlete


#1

Found this on another site. does he know what he is talking about?? or just trolling

OK here it goes...I will probably draw a few flames but I can't stand it any longer. I have a LOAD of steroid experience and I can no longer sit back...I want the best for you guys. Sounds corny but it's true.

I have a lot of experience using testosterone and steroids in bodybuilding and road cycling. I am a trainer and a coach.
Before I got seriously into bodybuilding I was a Cat 1 roadie.

I have been reading a lot of the threads on the forum and I am quite shocked at what doses of gear some of the endurance athletes on this forum are doing!

Did you know that 100mg of IM test per week will put most men into the upper quartile of the normal range and in fact it will put not a few above normal.

100mg of testosterone cypionate will give you about 70mg of pure test(minus ester weight). The average man puts out 4-7 mg of test per day....and 10 per day IF YOU ARE YOUNG AND LUCKY.

A test dose for endurance athletes should not be very high at all. 100- to 150mg per week MAX. 150 will put most mens' serum T at TWICE the highest reaches of normal.....that's 2000ng/dl! At that level your lipid profile will go to bro's...your HDL will drop a lot. Take more than 200 per week and it will dive to rock bottom in most men. This is not a good thing since arterial plaque build up is cumulative over years. Why add plaque to your arterial walls when you don't need to. *** This is BY FAR the worst side effect of steroid use .

Also, if you take more than 150 per week your dihydrotestosterone(metabolite of testosterone) will go up and if you have the genetics for hair loss you WILL loose hair. It's dose dependent....400 of test will cause much more hair loss IF you have the genetics in your family for hair loss. Other androgens, like trenbolone or even milder ones like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - and Primobolan - methenolone - can also cause hair loss.

Also, it may mess with your prostate with the higher dihydrotestosterone level but it usually takes more than 150 per week. My has been messed badly at 400 a week with a high PSA. However, even at 150 per week you may see and increase in PSA with no symptoms. We know that an elevated PSA isn't good even without symptoms.

Did you know that very few men have a naturally high T, even at 19 years of age...few have a T in the upper quartile or 750-1000ng/dl.

If you take larger doses of test, above 100- 150 per week max, you WILL hold significant water weight and it is not simply because T converts to estrogen. Water weight gain happens with androgens for "kidney" reasons. They alter the renin/angiotension system. So even if your gear does not aromatize to estrogen ie: trenbolone, you will add some water weight.
NOTE: I learned this about non aromatizing steroids from the late great Nandi. He provided me with the studies to back this up. Believe me there is nobody on the forums that knew more than him on steroids.

The higher doses of the aromatizing hormones like Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - , nandrolone (Deca -Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - ) and especially testosterone that I read on this forum will result in at least 5-7 or even 10 pound gain in water and that's a lot for an endurance man. My experience says that 150 of test and 300-400 of Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - will result in roughly a 7 pound water weight gain.

NOTE: Some non aromatizing steroids like trenbolone for example will make you look really "hard". You end up getting leaner and estrogen levels drop to rock bottom because you are not making any more testosterone and have NO estrogen from testosterone conversion. However, there still is some water retention from the trenbolone itself. Normally it isn't very much and you can't really "see" the water gain but it is there to some degree and a the muscular level....you notice it in UNREAL pumps that can become crippling for the endurance man and especially on a run.

trenbolone is a VERY powerful "androgen" and it is mainly the extreme androgenicity that makes you look so hard on trenbolone.

Larger doses also cause muscle mass weight increase and this is not what most road cyclists, nordic skiers or runners want.

This extra water weight is not a good thing for cyclists or runners....it has to do not only with hauling weight up hills but also about how the water negatively impacts your cardio vascular system. The extra water puts more stress on your heart and your VO2 max will GO DOWN FOR SURE if you hold a good deal of water.
It can and usually does also cause crippling pumps in your calves, anterior tibialis and especially your low back. These pumps will stop you cold bro's...trust me.

So even if you take an aromatase inhibitor like arimidex to reduce estrogen conversion and reduce water weight gain you will not be covering all your bases if you take larger doses of test or steroids.

The idea behind using testosterone, and or steroids for pure endurance sports( not track sprinting or MMA fighting) is to help with recovery so you can train hard more frequently. With supplementation you can get your T into the upper reaches of normal or a little higher and stay there...it will not go down as it does with hard training! Sometimes you can get a small boost in RBC count and increase your crit but bigger changes usually takes bigger doses with most men and that means water retention and water weight gain.

Which hormone is best for recovery reasons...testosterone FOR SURE but steroids help as well.

A good dose of test for the cyclist....100-150 mg per week .
On the 150 it is wise to take 1/4 arimidex every other day to control estrogen and water weight gain.

Why only 100mg some of you will say.....because it will get most of you into the upper reaches of normal and you will not usually have any estrogen/water retention issues and you lipid profile will be normal and may even improve a bit. Also, you stay at the upper normal and do not drop in T as you always do with hard training.

Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - ....often used by cyclists, and nordic skiiers.
Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - will convert to estrogen at about half the rate of testosterone.
Some think that this roid increases RBC count more than any other roid or testosterone.
There is no proof that Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - is better than test by the way. It never did anything more than test in this regard for me.

Actually the best roid for increasing RBC count is anadrol but it is 17 alpha alkylated and as such it is liver toxic. I do not recommend any 17 alpha-alkylated roid for bodybuilding or endurance training since you can get better results from non 17 alpha-alkylated gear.
You will also hold a load of water on even 50mg a day as this roid is a progestin and significantly increases water retention. If anyone says NO then they have not used this roid!

Good Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - dose for PURE endurance athletes(not track sprinters or MMA fighters) would be 200mg/wk
! It is best to stack test with Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - to keep your sex drive really good and for optimal recovery reasons.
So 125mg of test per week and 200 of Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - is a BIG STACK for an endurance athlete. You should take 1/4 tab of arimidex every other day with this dose to control estrogen/water.

****NOTE stack 200 or more of Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - or Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - or Primobolan - methenolone - with your test and your lipid profile suffer with a drop in good cholesterol(hdl)...take even more and it will go to roack bottom!

400 of Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - is bodybuilders dose....don't do it in my opinion. You will gain too much water and maybe more than a couple pounds of muscle. Most endurance men, save for really skinny "climbers"have plenty of muscle mass.....it's not about muscle mass...it's about sustainable aerobic power.

trenbolone!...The most powerful androgen know to man, save for the non anabolic dihydrotestosterone. Bodybuilders dose is 50-75mg per day. Some do 75 every other day ...this is a very powerful roid guys!

If you want to try this roid then do very little ...like 25 mg a day max.
on 50mg a day I got REALLY strong and gained 15 pounds of pure muscle in 10 weeks on trenbolone alone, and 100 of test for sex drive and test normalization, while lifting hard.
I would take 100 of test a week with this roid to save your sex drive.

Nandrolone(Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - ) is a mildish steroid that does convert to estrogen but less than test. 200 a week is plenty. Take 100-125 of test per week with it to save your sex drive.

Anavar ...don't use it...it's 17 alpha-alkylated. Also, for some strange reason many endurance men have had bad experiences with this roid re: cramping and crippling pumps.

Primobolin....maybe, since it is mild and doesn't convert to estrogen. Maybe try 200-250 a week. Use some test with it per above.
Oh...you can get oral Primobolan - methenolone - and it is not liver toxic as it is not 17 alpha-alkylated coated....but you have to increase the dose to see the same affect as an IM.

WHAT DO I REALLY RECOMMEND?

test ONLY!

100-125mg of test IM(injected) per week. 10 grams per day of Androgel if you don't like injections . Then get your T level checked. You can get it checked without a doctors script via the internet. If you T is at the upper reaches of normal ..say at 900-1000ng/dl then consider this good for the endurance man. Try 100mg first then get your T checked in a few weeks..if it doesn't do the trick then try 125mg.

AGAIN....WHY THE LOW DOSE?>>>

With most men(not all) 100mg per week will give you a T of a lucky19 year and most importantly it will not drop with hard training like it ALWAYS does naturally. The low dose will also not mess with your lipid profile and usually not result in a high estrogen level either.
If you want to go above the upper reaches of normal, for more "affect", to say 1500ng/dl then first try 125mg per week....if that doesn't give you 1500ng/dl then try 150 a week. But again, at 150 most men will be double high normal at about 2000ng/dl and it will have a negative impact on your lipid profile and your estrogen will go beyond high normal.

******!NOTE!****** Not everyone gets to the upper quartile of normal with 100mg per week SO>>>IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO GET YOUR T LEVEL CHECKED, after a few weeks "on", then it is probably best to do 125 per week, just in case.
Yes bro's 125mg/week is a very good endurance dose! It will get most men a bit above the higher reaches of normal.

FRONT LOAD INITIAL DOSE.

For your first shot do 200mg as a "front load" ...this will get your serum T up fast....then back off to your normal weekly dose.

*****IMPORTANT!!!!*******
TWICE WEEKLY INJECTIONS!

The half life of test testosterone cypionate or enanthate is about 6-8 days depending on
a couple factors. Serum T will reach it's PEAK in about 48 hours after injection and then slowly drop. So for best EVEN blood levels of T, ESPECIALLY on the lowest recommended dose of 100mg/week, it is best to inject the weekly dose in two separate injections per week.
If you are doing 150 per week then you don't need to divide the dose over two weekly injections since the total dose is higher....you don't ever see a drop in serum T below 1200ng/dl(above high normal) at any time of the week with this dose.

If you are stacking with 200 of Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - or Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - then still inject the test twice a week if it is 125mg or less....but you don't need to divide the Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - or Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - dose into two weekly injections due to the larger dose.

Also, the ester in Equipoise - boldenone undecylenate - and Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - has a longer half life than test testosterone cypionate or enanthate. However, you certainly can divide the dose into two doses and inject twice weekly with the test if you like....won't hurt anything that's for sure

WHERE TO INJECT?

Not the mid lateral thigh as a steady diet...because you will always have a sore spot on the thigh and that gets old. It is much better to inject in the upper outer quarter of the glutes/hip...away from the siatic nerve that runs down the middle of the glutes.

  • If you gain more than a few pounds then you are holding too much water and should get your estrogen checked. Fullness in the face is a good indicator of water retention.

  • You may gain a couple pounds of muscle on a low dose of test but it will not be much more than this....think of how big two 16 oz steaks are and then stick them on your thighs. Many will gain no muscle mass at all due to the high aerobic training load and lack of weight training.

Always get your e2 (estrogen level) checked if you are doing 125 and up ...if it is mid normal or perhaps slightly higher then you are fine. If it is at the upper reaches of normal or more then use arimidex at 1/4 pill every two or three days.

If you want to be "bold" then try 150 of test...but control the estrogen....get it checked or at least watch the weight gain and full face issue....then use an aromatase inhibitor like arimidex IN MODERATION!!! Too much estrogen inhibition is bad news. You want some estrogen in ya for cardiovascular health(helps lipid profile) and other reasons.

Stay on this dose for 12 weeks and then stop. A week after stopping IM test testosterone cypionate or enanthate, when your T level has dropped to low to mid normal then start taking Clomid . If you take it sooner it won't do a thing.
If you are using Androgel than start the Clomid on the third day after you last dose since androgels half life is short.

Day one do 100-300 mg and then do 50 a day for at least three weeks...NO LESS...I actually prefer 4 weeks. Clomid is an estrogen blocker and it blocks estrogens "shutting down" affect at the hypothalamus.
It will stimulate GnRH release from the hypothalamus...then this stimulates a sleeping pituitary to release lh - leutenizing hormone - ..and this hormone will stimulate shut down testis to produce testosterone.

You can stay on test or steroids for a long time...say the entire cycling season, however, in this case you should take HCH for 2-3 weeks BEFORE coming off the cycle . This hormone mimics lh - leutenizing hormone - and it will cause your testis to start working again and grow back to normal size BEFORE the cycle is over so that Clomid will work much better.
Please do a search on my HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - protocol on the steroid forum.

NOTE: 100 of testosterone a week will shut down ALL of your natural T production pronto.
trenbolone will do it too at 25 mg a day but even faster.
200 of Primobolan - methenolone - will do it too...don't believe those that say it won't!
Nandrolone at 100mg will do it too..some say T recovery after using this roid is harder and longer. I have not had this experience but some have.

who agree's and why yes and why not??


Planning First Cycle, Not for Size
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Pro Athletes, Best Steroids, Cycling Necessary?
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#2

I am not an endurance athlete now (prefer very heavy lifting), but, being a very tall fuck, was always drafted for track through most of my life, and still run about 15 miles a week — at 7200 ft above sea level, on hills. Well, actually mountains. UP and DOWN.

I have been on a low-for-here, but higher-than-you state, test for several years now.

I do, indeed, get crippling pumps in my legs.

I also started to have crappy HDL/LDL, so got on Crestor MWF at 5mgs.

And I give “double platelets” blood every 90 days because my hemoglobin is on the high side — but that may have more to do with being way the fuck up in the sky.


#3

This is by far one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. He starts out close to idiotic, but ends up at full-on retard. The quote from that Adam Sandler movie comes to mind:

This represents total ignorance of how the ranges are even established. They are created using a statistical model of all the men that have been tested, which follows a normal distribution. By definition, the number of men in the upper quartile will be…wait for it…TWENTY FIVE PERCENT!!!

I want to punch him in the soul.


#4

lol thats why i posted it… to see if he ws speaking the truth or not


#5

is it worth reading? I couldn’t be arsed at first but if there’s lulz to be had then I might.

that “punch him in the soul” shout was pretty funny


#6

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
This is by far one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. He starts out close to idiotic, but ends up at full-on retard. The quote from that Adam Sandler movie comes to mind:

This represents total ignorance of how the ranges are even established. They are created using a statistical model of all the men that have been tested, which follows a normal distribution. By definition, the number of men in the upper quartile will be…wait for it…TWENTY FIVE PERCENT!!!

I want to punch him in the soul.
[/quote]

I ignored all that nonsense and focused on his belief that low dose is often better for an endurance athlete.

I concur with this.

Reminds me of the LONG super-low dose (like 10 mg) dbol protocols Olympians of the past followed.


#7

so what do do you guys suggest for an endurance athlete then??


#8

[quote]mtbcobra wrote:
so what do do you guys suggest for an endurance athlete then??[/quote]

Learning to play real sports?


#9

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]mtbcobra wrote:
so what do do you guys suggest for an endurance athlete then??[/quote]

Learning to play real sports?[/quote]

Having the cardio ability to run middling distances, say 10K, is pretty critical in almost all sports except pure strength competitions.

I also think it bleeds away t-bloat, but that may just be me.


#10

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]mtbcobra wrote:
so what do do you guys suggest for an endurance athlete then??[/quote]

Learning to play real sports?[/quote]

Try mountain biking 3-4 hours see if its a real sport… u will cry like a little 5 year old


#11

Looks like a post from RG. He’s legit. Seriously. Also Nandi was incredibly smart.
In response to the fucktard who wants to punch him in the soul, your an idiot.


#12

wow, 14 posts in ten years and you just had to bump this crap thread? It must’ve really struck a chord


#13

[quote]doombunney wrote:
In response to the fucktard who wants to punch him in the soul, your an idiot. [/quote]

*you’re

Similar to idiots that bump threads that died 3 months ago.


#14

Thanks for bumping this up, this was interesting to read. Pretty much same things I discussed a while ago with my friend, who is a national level cyclist. Endurance -athletes steroid protocols is not so often discussed topic on forums, or at least on those I’ve been lurking. So gracias!


#15

We’d have to know how endurance athletes use to see if this makes sense.

I mean I agree that when you go to higher dosages bad things happen to your cholesterol, you get muscle mass and water weight which are bad for any “climbers”, and certainly calf and back pumps get horrible for endurance sports. But I don’t think the top guys only use 100mg of test a week and call it day!


#16

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]mtbcobra wrote:
so what do do you guys suggest for an endurance athlete then??[/quote]

Learning to play real sports?[/quote]

This made me bust out laughing…I have friends who do endurance sports but Ive been a football, powerlifting, olympic lifting, MMA guy my entire life…so when it comes to sarcasm I do lean towards wanting to pick up heavy shit and hit things really hard and fast…


#17

mtbcobra - do you recall where you got this post from? This is very interesting and I wouldn’t mind tracking down this guy to ask some questions. Thanks in advance and email me the info.


#18

im on this cycle now… 200test/200EQ each week… 2 pins a week

week one recover faster… good mood… confident…


#19

okay so I need help!!! I fight mma professionally at a low level I did track in college and I’m a good athlete but I need something help with my training with my hard training schedule I want to start doing testosterone enanthate but I don’t know how much I should take what would you suggest for my sport?


#20

[quote]john9799 wrote:
okay so I need help!!! I fight mma professionally at a low level I did track in college and I’m a good athlete but I need something help with my training with my hard training schedule I want to start doing testosterone enanthate but I don’t know how much I should take what would you suggest for my sport?
[/quote]

How much weight are you willing to gain.