The Dreamers, DACA and Immigration

I am going to stick to the subject of the Dreamers. Personally, I believe that if someone was brought here as a child then they should be allowed to stay if they have been here for an extended period of time. I don’t know how long that period should be but that’s only a detail.

People get pardons for crimes they committed. People get amnesty. It’s not like we would be doing something unheard of.

They may or may not. But that is the same for people who are born here.

My views on immigration, legal and illegal, are not the same as my views on the Dreamers. I just want it to be clear that my support for those specific individuals does not mean I support illegal immigration or have a very “progressive” view on legal immigration.

That’s not a minor detail, it is crucial.

I don’t disagree with you, however it will be an act of legal mercy on the US’s part. They aren’t obligated to do it, and it may be unwise if they do. The parents are an entirely separate matter, I cannot see a justification for keeping a conscious law breaker the same treatment as an unwilling and unknowing party to a crime.

Understood. If it seemed like I was putting words in your mouth, I apologise.

My use of only made it appear that I meant it was minor. Obviously it isn’t.

Well, we can’t always predict the future. I would be open to some exceptions such as a Dreamer who has a criminal record should go.

I think that’s a bare minimum, but we’ll have to see what, if anything, comes out of the next few weeks.

Better to argue the merits and demerits of a bill that actually exists, rather than the hypothetical.

I’d probably favour a case by case assessment were it my country.

The biggest difference is that Mexico makes billions of dollars off of illegal emigration to the U.S. That’s money that leaves the U.S. and does not return. It’s mafia-esce in it’s desire to pilfer billions of dollars with no skin in the game.
On top of that it stresses our infrastructure to the tune of billions of dollars. Mexico has every incentive to continue encouraging illegal behavior so long as its illegal in the U.S. and not Mexico.
The losers in this scheme is the illegals themselves. They get taken advantage by Mexico, by the coyoteje’s who get them across and murder them (the illegals) if they are caught trying on their own, by Americans who take advantage of them for cheap labor, etc.

This is a behavior that needs to be discouraged by hook or crook, by wall, or border patrol…

It’s just plain human trafficking. Anybody supporting such activity is culpable.

I am all for legal immigration, but this shit at the southern border has got to stop if for no other reason than that it is a moral imperative.

This diatribe has nothing to do with DACA.

I don’t have a problem with them and the numbers are not untenable. And I support congress coming up with a legal solution to their dilemma. Ending the EO wasn’t a bad thing, it’s a good thing. Congress was not going to get off it’s ass on immigration unless forced.
We’re on the 4th President talking about immigration reform, apparently forcing congress’s hand was necessary in this case.

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The US gives something like 400 million a year in aid to Mexico. I assume that goes away as part of the payment for the wall. After a great many years Mexico will have paid for the wall. Hey…I’m just guessing as to what he will do. Just a guess…

In any sane time, the whole idea of caving in to illegals would be dismissed on the spot. Today, we are told that we should be thankful to hand our culture over.

Trump seems to zero in on some sort of manageable amnesty but without chain migration. Plus a sizable chunk of the testiculative wall, of course. That wouldn’t be a bad deal. Since vocal parts of the republican party are obviously traitors, it may in fact be the best deal possible.

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This is where I’m at.

For sure. Anchor baby tourism. Chain migration is really difficult. Keeping family units together has been a priority, but that can get HUGE and involves elderly people who have never paid into any of our systems. In CA we have a very liberal In Home Support Services system which allows family members to collect monthly allowances to take care of elderly relatives. It’s meant to encourage people to be able to afford to keep their own family members at home, often a less expensive option than govt. funded assisted living. You are supposed to be a citizen to do this, but like a lot of things in CA, we hear about lots of fraud and purposeful not checking, looking the other way on the part of social services.

You’d think. Mexico refuses to take it’s own criminals back and incarcerate them, so we are incurring HUGE costs in states like CA just incarcerating felons and violent criminals who are Mexican citizens.

Yes. For example, my young adult son has college friends who are DACA kids, currently waiting on pins and needles. It’s a little nuts, as well as inhumane, to allow a kid who came to Los Angeles when he was 3, was bright enough to get into one of the best universities in the US, and is now a top engineering student at age 22. That kid may not be representative of the average of course, but we’d be insane to send him back to Mexico after we’ve given him scholarships to our universities despite his immigration status, and he’s now very close to being a solid tax payer.

@ previous use of entitlements… I’m assuming that they would not deny him if his mother put him on MediCal when he was a little kid. That would make no sense.

@ the parents of Dreamers. I think there should be some allowances for individual circumstances. Disqualify serious criminals, etc… And issue work visas to some. It’s very difficult for an illegal worker to get a legal job. Having your own business is apparently a way around breaking laws related to the misuse of social security numbers. I recently heard an immigration lawyer talking about how someone can legally pay income taxes on their own business earnings, can file taxes on income if they have a small business.

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I have an anecdote that describes exactly what you are saying. I was working in Italy in 2000. I was doing my weekend moseying through the city square in Milan, when I heard this big ass ruckus, which was coming from the right side of the Duomo (if you are facing the front of it, then they came from the right side).
It was a protest by illegal immigrants against the Italian government for recent increases in border security and deportations.
I was utterly gobsmacked at the time… I was surprise the Italian police didn’t have buses waiting for them, to load them on at the end of the march to just deport them to the nearest border.
I sat there in the square in utter amazement at the brazenness of these people. Not just the march, but that they were willingly self-identifying to a government and people that do not want them there in a country where they have no rights, at all.

My how times had changed… Back then, I was under the mistaken impression that if you are doing something illegal, you don’t advertise it. That’s how you get caught.

I do miss the place sometimes. For a visitor like me, it was lawless. I looked like them and I was a U.S. citizen in a country with a favorable exchange rate.

image

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@ Chain Migration and California.

This is how you put your elderly immigrant grandparent on Cash Assistance Program for Immigrants (CAPI), MediCal, and IHSS. The CAPI system is CA’s response to immigration reform in the 1990s that made it harder for most non-citizens to get SSI. I stand corrected in my post above. I was thinking people were going around, fraud, or the social workers were simply not demanding proof of citizenship. It’s simply not required. This could very easily total more than $2500 per month for a Chinese grandmother.

http://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/Cash-Assistance-for-Immigrants

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The question is, how is it affecting California? Good, bad or neutral?

I thought I’d post this from the LDS newsroom about the Dreamers. I was really pleased to see this.

Wondering if any of you have noticed official statements from your congregations? This is fairly unusual for the Mormon church to make a statement on a current political issue.

Official Statement
26 JANUARY 2018 - SALT LAKE CITY

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has issued the following statement regarding Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA):

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established in 188 nations around the globe. Issues of immigration and legal status are of concern for many of our members. Most of our early Church members emigrated from foreign lands to live, work and worship, blessed by the freedoms and opportunities offered in this great nation.

Immigration is a complex and sometimes divisive issue. As we have stated before, we believe that our first priority is to love and care for one another as Jesus Christ taught. Each nation must determine and administer its policies related to immigration. The Church does not advocate any specific legislative or executive solution. Our hope is that, in whatever solution emerges, there is provision for strengthening families and keeping them together. We also acknowledge that every nation has the right to enforce its laws and secure its borders and that all persons subject to a nation’s laws are accountable for their acts in relation to them.

We welcome the sincere efforts of lawmakers and leaders to seek for solutions that honor these principles and extend compassion to those seeking a better life. Specifically, we call upon our national leaders to create policies that provide hope and opportunities for those, sometimes referred to as “Dreamers,” who grew up here from a young age and for whom this country is their home. They have built lives, pursued educational opportunities and been employed for years based on the policies that were in place. These individuals have demonstrated a capacity to serve and contribute positively in our society, and we believe they should be granted the opportunity to continue to do so.

Imo they should stay. Kicking out kids doesn’t help economy just make usa look like dicks. Wall = big waste of money. Might make a small dent in drugs & illegals but at end of day… US is trillion dollar biz for cartels. They will find ways. + you aint gonna see white folks pickin strawberries.

Hi. I was thinking about your post in light of the Four Pillars from the SOTU address.

@ Dreamers. I was pretty happy with what Trump said about that in his SOTU address. Trump used the 1.8 million number. I’m fine with that, and that they have a path to citizenship. I think harline GOP people who don’t want to give these kids citizenship are making a huge error.

@ The Wall. That seems to be the consensus. It’s just a symbol, one I don’t relate to. That doesn’t mean that some fences in areas aren’t a good thing. Even Dems in the past have most certainly talked about building fences and walls over portions of the border. It wasn’t so partisan until recently. And he talked about more security of the border, but yeah I don’t think we need a huge and expensive wall.

@ Chain migration and expenses. I don’t think there’s any reason at this point in the history of our country, with our current extention of entitlements and our currend deficits, that we should keep accepting every distant relative so that one immigrant can also bring parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles who are well past their working years. If Dems are going to dig in about how we should have unlimited immigration for every distant family member, then they’re not living in a fiscal reality.

@ Merit based Immigration. This one is less clear for me. I’m not sure what to think about it. Of course we’ve long encouraged immmigration in fields where we had shortages like nursing, or IT, or Engineering. BUT I think this will always need to be a mix. If there’s a shortage of farm workers and construction workers, then that has to be flexible. That could easily be more work visas, rather than citizenship. Texas has taken that approach, and they’ve done better at keeping up with the necessary workers than AZ who has likely been TOO firm on enforcement. At least that’s my recollection from reading about this a year or two ago.

They did an interview with the head of ICE on NPR the other day. They asked him specifically about this and he said they (DACA kids) are not a target of their activities. Their raids at this time are prioritized to target known criminals and repeat offenders. In other words, right now they are focusing on the folks we definitely do not want here, like MS13. Which is why they are in the news cycle so much these days. They are huge targets for ICE raids.
However, if a DACA person with expired credentials happens to be in the population of the targeted raid, they would be taken in and their fate decided by a judge.


A 2000 mile wall is a huge waste of money. But on certain places of the border, the barrier method has proven effective where they in fact have barriers. And considering the topography a long unbroken wall is not necessary. But barriers at certain junctures would help.

The ICE guy was very adamant that they are looking at multi-faceted approach, including staff, technology and barriers.
If you need a job, ICE is hiring, BTW…

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As with any negotiation, you can expect to get about half of what you want. That’s why you front load the negotiation with a bunch of stuff you can afford to get whacked, which both sides are doing.
Make no mistake though. If even a decent immigration bill get’s passed, it will be a huge win for Trump for he will have done what 4 presidents have failed to do, get any kind of immigration reform passed.

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I think DACA recipients should get greencards after everyone who wants one and hasn’t broken the law has gotten a green card. And that isn’t based on who is in line right now. If anyone else that hasn’t broken the law gets in line, they are in front of DACA, too.

Green cards are a path to citizenship as it currently stands.

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