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The Double-Dose Surge Project

The Double-Dose Surge Project

Last week we ran an article <a href="http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1421246"target=“new”>HERE about my experiences taking Surge Recovery before, during, and after weight training, instead of just post-workout. Then we called for volunteers and sent 10 T-Nation members two free bottles of Surge so they could repeat the experiment.

This thread is for them.

Here they’ll be logging their experiences and reporting their final results.

Our experimenters are:

randman
nephorm
Ramo
El Conquistador
lizard king
john.sifferman
Dan Thompson
Aragorn
dlong62969
wogrl

You can begin as soon as you get your Surge!

(Note: Other T-Nation members and contributors may post here too.)

Seeing as how no one’s posted here yet, I’ll give it a go. I am a 21 year old college student living in Minnesota. Stats are as follows:

Hight: 6’0"
Weight: 177 lbs
Body fat: 6.5%
Waist: 33.5"

My current goal is to gain as much muscle as possible by the end of the semester while staying under 10% body fat. I plan to do this by eating slightly above maintenance and cycling carbs, eating about 800-1,000 kcal above maintenance on high days and about 200-400 kcals above on low days. I lift six days a week and perform energy systems work twice a week.

I am currently taking Carbolin 19 and am logging my results in another thread, which contains my nutrition/supplementation and lifting regimen. Here’s the link for anyone who is interested:

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1410412&pageNo=1#1429672

Since I am logging my Carbolin 19 experiences already, I will try to keep my posts on this thread specific to Surge.

Glad to be on board,

Dan

Seeing that a tub of Surge only costs $2 more than a bottle of BCAAs, I think I’m going to cut back on BCAA tabs and do this double Surge thing when I place my next order. I’ll make sure to check this regularly to see how the experiment goes.

Here’s a little background on me before we get started.

First of all, I?m really excited to be here. I know how much the staff here at T-Nation believes in their products, and they really want to show all of us how effective Surge really is! This experiment is an awesome idea, and I’m happy to be a lab rat for them. Thanks Chris!

I’m a twenty year old strength and conditioning coach living in NH. Most of my work is with general population clients for fat loss, muscle gain, etc. But I also have a few high school athletes under my wing, mostly Junior Olympic female volleyball players. I’m a huge advocate of constantly learning new things and experimenting, so that I know what is best for me and my clients.

I have a lot of different resources in my tool box training wise. Throughout the year, you will see me training with Olympic weightlifting, strongman training, powerlifting movements, and all of the other basic movements: step-ups, lunges, rows, presses, etc.

I have some awesome tools at my disposal, such as an Olympic Weightlifting set, power rack, kettlebells, sandbags, blast straps, bands, dumbbells, tractor tires, kegs, pullup/dip bars, and plenty of floor space. I am not a body part isolater by any means.
'I train full body 3-4 times per week. On my off days, I do joint mobility work, GPP, interval training, and am in the very beginning stages of Scott Sonnon’s Prasara Yoga (check youtube, it?s really awesome stuff).

Height 5’8"
Weight 155 lbs
Body fat ? 10% (seven site test)

I’ll keep you posted!

John A. Sifferman NSCA-CPT

Height: 5’7 1/2"
Weight: 159
Bodyfat: 9 percent (seven-site with Lange calipers)

Goal: Just came off of a nine month transformation from a 200 lb. fat tub of goo to a lean little runt. It’s time for some quality weight to be added to my puny frame. Shooting for 180-ish without gaining too much adipose tissue in the process.

Looking forward to seeing how the double dosing protocol impacts the body comp as well as performance.

Doing a local push/pull this weekend, and then I’ll be running a high volume/high frequency PL routine (Korte 3x3), which calls for a ton of squat and deadlift work. So the extra recovery will be needed. My stats:

5’10
235-240
~15% BF

I’ll have some new maxes after this weekend hopefully, which is perfect, because I can compare them to what I lift after I run the Korte routine.

More to come.

I just got an email confirming that the Surge shipment was delivered, so I’ll go ahead and put down a little info.

As I said in my application post, I’m currently trying to drop fat. Put way too much on over the past few months. I’m doing 100 workouts to lean city right now, and keeping calories fairly low. I’m completely sedentary during the day, so I really think this plan will help get my metabolism into “normal” range.

I have eliminated carbs except for peri-workout and breakfast (oatmeal and protein powder).

It’ll be interesting to see what this protocol can do when I’m hypocaloric!

Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it!

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it![/quote]

If you still need to lose weight, and aren’t willing to experiment then I’d just go with 2 scoops of Low Carb Metabolic Drive. However, this is assuming you’re having carbs while training. What do you have before and during your training session?

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it!

If you still need to lose weight, and aren’t willing to experiment then I’d just go with 2 scoops of Low Carb Metabolic Drive. However, this is assuming you’re having carbs while training. What do you have before and during your training session?[/quote]

I’ve always been told/heard/thought that it doesn’t matter what time of day you’re training…that post workout it’s important to get those carbs in… your body will absorb them right up…even if you end up going to bed right after…that’s the whole point of a recovery drink --to help you recover and the major “recovery” comes from the carbs. (there’s tons of studies out there that show this very thing.)

I just got my Surge shipment so here goes my intro:
I think I’m the only female…
I am 25y/o , 5’5" and (haven’t weighed myself lately–will do it at gym in am.) usually sit at 140lb.
I am a personal trainer and aerobic instructor. I compete in figure and am currently cutting/dieting in preperation for some spring shows.

I havent tested my bodyfat in forever…I have yet to find someone who can measure my thigh with calipers… (I do know that I was tested in the “bod pod” at school, while doing my 2004 and 2005 shows… 2004 I came in at 10.5/11% and 2005 I was between 12 and 14% for all of my shows.) I might post pictures though – to track my progress. (if i can get my hands on a digital camera)

Training is currently an upper/lower split. 1 heavy day for both and 1 light day --in which I’m doing a metabolic/crossfit type of workout. My focus in upper body is DELTS DELTS and more DELTs. I’m trying to get those noce round caps. I also focus on back. With my lower half, I’m trying to work on my glute-ham tie in.

I do a decent amount of cardio which will increase as needed–i know all of you have your opinions about cardio but remember, I’m competing in figure! I dont do this much year round.—I teach spinning 3 times per week and kickboxing twice. depending on how i feel I like to throw in a day of boxing intervals, a day of yoga and a day of HIIT.

My Diet revolves around my training. With caloric cycling…low, med and high. My body respond pretty well to clean carbs–so I have no fear about Surge. However, I’ve been allowed to cut my dose in half.

 --a little of my training history:

I started competing in strongman in 2003 and actually got 3rd nationally (in the lightweight division.)That same year I did a powerlifting competition and placed first in my weight class, too. Once I had placed at nationals for strongman…I made the decision to make the move to figure. I was at the top of my weight class and was unwilling to go to the next one (there’s only 2–140 and under and anything over 140.) and I’like to do well(read–I’m very competitive) and was unwilling to gain the necessary amount of weight to be competitive in that weight class.

Transitioning from strongman mentality to figure was a huge challenge–especially food wise. so I took about 6 mo to transition that aspect of it and began training for a competition in Nov 2004, that summer. I did a couple more the spring of 2005 and tried a different organization for one show in 2006. While competing in NPC (all in 2004-2005) I placed in the top 5 at every show.
the figure field/competitions are getting tougher…as it’s popularity grows…so I’ve got my work cut out for me!

[quote]wogrl wrote:
hockechamp14 wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it!

If you still need to lose weight, and aren’t willing to experiment then I’d just go with 2 scoops of Low Carb Metabolic Drive. However, this is assuming you’re having carbs while training. What do you have before and during your training session?

I’ve always been told/heard/thought that it doesn’t matter what time of day you’re training…that post workout it’s important to get those carbs in… your body will absorb them right up…even if you end up going to bed right after…that’s the whole point of a recovery drink --to help you recover and the major “recovery” comes from the carbs. (there’s tons of studies out there that show this very thing.)[/quote]

That’s why I asked what he had before and during. They are important, just different people have different takes on if it will effect fat loss.

The bigger concern is that if you fall asleep with the help of an insulin spike, you tend to get less restful sleep. I’ve read it’s because with the high insulin levels, your body has trouble producing and using GH.

I got back in town last night from a trip to Atlanta,Ga.I will start my project on Tuesday(I don’t work out on Monday because gyms are too crowded).I will post my actual workout after every workout.I have not received my Surge yet but don’t worry because I never run out.

The only supplements that I will be taking during this project will be surge,fish oil capsules,multi-vitamins,and Supercharge.These are all supplements that I regularly use. I wont the only difference to be the extra serving of Surge pre-workout so we can easily measure the effectiveness of this protocol.The only other essential items that I will be using are:

a.training log-I use sheets from
bodybuilding.com
b.Nike-Free shoes-per T-Nation suggestion
c.Ipod shuffle-per T-Nation suggestion
I need to download new music tonight and I’m ready to go.Peace!

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. [/quote]

It’s the DOUBLE Surge project, right? So if you only take Surge! pre-workout, you are not taking a double dose of Surge. In which case it was unfair of you to take 2 cans of Surge that could have gone to someone who would have followed the 2 servings of Surge recommendation.

[quote]nephorm wrote:

Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it![/quote]

By post-workout meal, do you mean the meal AFTER post-workout Surge? Like the post-post-training meal?

Recently had another incident like I wrote about in my <a href="http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1349949"target=“new”>blog that inspired this project.

Lower body / abs day: front squats, snatch grip deads off platform, lots of unilateral work after that, plus calves and abs. Nailed 'em. But I’ve done this workout before with half a servings of Surge before, half a serving sipped during, and a full serving right after. Little to no soreness, super fast recovery, etc.

But this time I left for the gym with my Surge sitting on the kitchen counter. Just flat forgot it. Did the workout and took the post-workout Surge. Next day, intense soreness, lasted for days.

Next time I did the same workout, remembered all the Surge – little to no soreness, ready to rock the frequency again soon after.

The difference between post-workout Surge and pre-, during-, and post- is pretty amazing.

So, I wonder what pre-workout ONLY does compared to the previous two scenarios? Hmmm. . .

Surge Project lab wabbits, stick to the original experiment guidelines (pre and post - and mid if you want) and I may try pre- only.

Fun stuff, huh?

Don’t have my Surge yet, will start posting when I start taking it…

Ok, a long time ago, my previous attempts at taking Surge only pre-workout left me sluggish and sleepy during training. I will most probably be sticking to a 1/2 before 1/2 during 1 after scheme. I may try the 1 full serving beforehand just to see if it still hits me that way…

Well, this is going to be my training layout for the next couple of weeks–This week is a recovery/mobility week and then I’m going to go back to squatting and deadlifting 5x a week. This is perhaps unwise for me, as I had scheduled an end to the high frequency training and a return to WSB style training after this down week. But, in order to try and not disappoint everyone reading here, and Shugs for giving me the Surge, I’m going to instead go back into the HF program for a week to gauge recovery with Surge. This should be an extremely demanding environment for the experiment, as I’ve already hit overreaching and gone way beyond it. Frankly, this is probably not the smartest thing to do, but I can’t disappoint you all now can I? :slight_smile: Hopefully my recovery week will be enough to let me hit this at 100%.

Here’s the template, in general terms and subject to change depending on my percieved weaknesses:

Mon–singles day–reverse band DL, Wide Box Sqt.

Tues–DE day–band/chain DL, band/chain box Sqt.

Wed–3RM day–Sumo DL, Oly. front Sqt.

Thurs–pseudo DE day–snatch grip dl (work up to a heavy triple), cambered bar squat/oly back sqt.

Fri–5RM day–conv. DL/maybe from deficit, cambered bar/oly back sqt.

I will be tacking on two bench variations at 3x5 (one each W/F) and two row variations at 3x5 (one each M/U) after my primary work. Any more than this and it won’t be pretty.

Volume will be kept to a minimum–approx. 10 working reps TOTAL for each exercise on each day except for friday. It doesn’t look like much, but don’t let the low volume fool you, this is monstrous.

The original plan was to go back to WSB and test my DL on Monday after a rest week and see how my dive into HF/HI went. As mentioned, instead I will go back into HF/HI. I will modify the Monday session to include a conv. DL max. After the max, I’ll lower the effective bar weight with the bands and keep working for a few reps.

Training this week is going to be disappointingly vague, as I’m avoiding doing any loaded barbell work and just going to work on getting some volume/ or upper body work in and on my weak points without jeopardizing my ME Monday and starting out with less than a full tank. I don’t know what I’m going to do yet, I may even do some cardio or basketball. Who knows. I’m only going to work out 3-4 times this week, depending on what I feel like. To that end, I’m going to eat whatever I want, as much as I want. Not usually the S.O.P. for me, but all I care about is successfully progressing next Monday.

height 6’1" ish.
weight 206 ish
bf% not counting–seems to be low teens, good enough for now (mini-bulk).

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
What do you have before and during your training session?[/quote]

Huh? Do you know what this thread is about? Is this a joke?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I just got an email confirming that the Surge shipment was delivered, so I’ll go ahead and put down a little info.

As I said in my application post, I’m currently trying to drop fat. Put way too much on over the past few months. I’m doing 100 workouts to lean city right now, and keeping calories fairly low. I’m completely sedentary during the day, so I really think this plan will help get my metabolism into “normal” range.

I have eliminated carbs except for peri-workout and breakfast (oatmeal and protein powder).

It’ll be interesting to see what this protocol can do when I’m hypocaloric!

Since I work out in the evenings, I’m not sure if I should go ahead and use Metabolic Drive complete as my post-workout meal (because of the carbs before bed), or if I should stick to protein and fat. If anyone has any advice on that, I’d be happy to hear it![/quote]

Neph, you should try to eat real food after PWO Surge, unless you will be going to bed shortly therefater and not eating again.

If you are not going to bed Biotest recommends the following, and so do I:

“If your goal is to lose fat, one to two hours after consuming the drink, eat a meal that complies with your current dietary program.”

If you are going to bed before eating again, go with the low carb Metabolic Drive, and some healthy fat like nuts (see today’s tip).
I assume you are not on the V diet since you did not mention it.

One last thing; you guys took all the Surge! Biotest is out, and so am I.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Ok, a long time ago, my previous attempts at taking Surge only pre-workout left me sluggish and sleepy during training. I will most probably be sticking to a 1/2 before 1/2 during 1 after scheme. I may try the 1 full serving beforehand just to see if it still hits me that way…
[/quote]

Aragorn, Berardi mentioned that very occurrence (going hypoglycemic)in an interview with Shugart. He now recommends that you drink Surge during the workout, as opposed to beforehand:

[quote]
JMB wrote:
One thing I?ve learned, however, is that it?s best to avoid drinking the Surge before exercise and instead sip it during the exercise. By consuming it before, some athletes have been prone to rebound hypoglycemia during their training while others have simply felt too full with all that fluid slogging around in their guts. [/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461132

Something to consider anyway