I guess I stand mostly corrected. Although I never has issue with it not being a powerlifting program. I just (still) wonder if the way it’s set up is asking for trouble down the line.
I’d be interested to know if it really is similar to strongman training though. @flipcollar and @Koestrizer?
It would depend on whom you ask, I guess. I don’t know if there is a real consens about what strongman training generally looks like. Most guys I know train similiar to powerlifters during the week (although a lot use variations, squat = front squat etc), and then have an event day on weekends where they focus on upcoming or frequently featured events.
Others include events into their regular training, for example yoke on squat day. A lot of that depends on equipment availability.
As to the conditioning aspect: I obviously don’t know all about what other strongman do wether they are pros or amateurs… But I don’t know strongmen who utilize giant set training as a form of conditioning. Not during the main working sets.
That said - Most strongman that I personally know and have seen do not look anything like Brian.
@T3hPwnisher uses a lot of giant sets and supersets in his training.
I think seperating strength and conditioning will serve MOST people better. There are exception and I salute them but I think it wouldn’t/ doesn’t help me be a better strongman.
Saw my name tagged here and read through a lot of the dialogue. Interesting stuff. @Frank_C Hit on a very significant factor with giant sets in that you aren’t pushing all of the work to failure, and that’s how you make it sustainable. It’s totally true that, if you were to push an AMRAP set of bench, follow that by a true set of kroc rows and then burn out on the standing ab wheel, there’s no way you could put up a decent performance again in 90 seconds, but if you only push the bench hard and then just use the rows and abs to accumulate some volume, it’s much more viable.
It also DOES take a long time to get good enough conditioned to make that sort’ve training effective, but it also takes a long time to get big and strong. Poundages will drop while you attempt to get in shape at first, but if you get stronger under that condition, it means you will be even stronger when you are fresh.
About the only thing keeping me from running Dark Horse is the time commitment. I just won’t allot myself 90 minutes to train. Otherwise, I think it looks pretty sound from a “get big, strong and conditioned” perspective. For hitting a better 1rm, there are much better choices, but that’s because that’s a very specialized goal.
That is a very good observation and what I think as well, It has brought me out of my comfort zone which I think is good. I don’t know if the variation lifts will help me at all for the goal of putting weight on the bar on comp lift (I don’t compete)
I just hope the Darkhorse will help my 1RM 
Thanks for coming by my humble log and taking the time to comment, you crazy Dude… love your log man.
Mort if all your worried about is your 1rm, stick to the original no nonsense 5/3/1 o r you can’t go wrong with the linear or progressive 5x5, do this for 2 years and you will surprise yousrself with your new found strength.
Happy to contribute.
Strength is always helpful for 1rms, but 1rms are very much a skill in and of itself. To maximize ability to move weight for 1 rep in a small handful of lifts, a more specialized approach tends to be more effective.
But honestly, outside of competition, I don’t see a lot of benefit to 1rm chasing compared to chasing after getting bigger and stronger.
Hey Luc
At my age all I worry about is to stay healthy I guess.
That out of the way I would love to hit 1,2,3,4 plates for press and bench I’m close. Actually a couple or three years ago i did 2 reps with 2 plate bench.
I usually do not train specific for 1RM.
This Darkhorse project was just for the “fun” of it and to see if doing variation lifts would actually boost my comp lift.
I did JIms work for about a year and thought it was time to change things a bit.
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I am determined to finish the Darkhorse and switch to something else after this, I have found at least two of CT’s programs that looks promising.
MEV = minimum effective volume, aka the smallest amount of working sets/reps you need to do to achieve a significant return on investment in terms of size or strength gains
MRV = maximum recoverable volume, aka your upper limit for how much volume you can do in a session before it starts to impede your recovery/make your recovery take longer than it normally would.
So if you overestimate the amount of volume you need to make gains, you’re probably also going to overestimate the amount of volume that you can realistically recover from. I think that’s where you need to really assess what your goals are. Doing the amount of volume prescribed by Dark Horse at the intensities that he prescribes really does take a while to recover from if you do it all plus the assistance.
I’m interested to hear your thoughts on this. I really don’t have an opinion either way, although I do agree that it doesn’t seem like a powerlifting program. Someone mentioned it earlier, the rest intervals are very short and there seems to be a lot going on which slightly shifts the focus away from the main lift IMO.
This is my main concern. I don’t care that it’s not PL specific, because it has no reason to be. 5/3/1 isn’t PL specific either.
But, as you point out, there’s a lot going on and my scepticism stems from there being a lot going on during the main lift. Surely that has to detract from being able to learn the main lift. Short rest periods are fine, we use them once a week and it’s a good way to strain with light weight. Giant and super sets are good too, but they usually seem to be used later in a session just to get a pump.
EDIT: I have done some supersetting when I was doing 5/3/1 (push-ups between squats, pull aparts between pressing, etc), and TBH all I can say it did was allow me to do more crap in less time. It didn’t result in any improvement that I haven’t seen when not doing it. Effectively it was junk volume. The one time I got anything good out of supersets was when I used them towards the end.
I get that it’s a popular new program and a bunch of guys are seeing progress on it. That’s cool. What I’m asking is how long that progress will be there and how well it will transfer to general performance. What I’m suspecting currently is that Darkhorse is going to get you good at doing Darkhorse and not too much else. I also suspect it’s going to end up with more than the usual amount of injuries.
Well the main lift in this case is a variation lift, not a lift one want to be better at. The variation used is meant to bring up the weak point in the comp lift.
The comp lift is used as DE work, on “the opposite” lift NOT using giant sets here. Fokus is technique and speed.
So ME work and volume is done with a lift that is not as efficient as the comp lift, and should therefore not be as demanding on the body… Not that I can feel it.
When shifting from ME work (giant sets) to DE (emom) those 10 minutes seems to boost the energy level over the 10 minutes. Yes I get a little fatigued by the end but the hardest set is the first by set 5 I’m ready and the reps are crisp and fine.
When doing Jims work I had to go in and lift a set weight. Darkhorse have you autoregulate in the way that the ME have you doing a 1, 3 or 5 RM for the day and from there you establish the volume set.
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I do have my doubts about this, don’t get me wrong. But then again it’s only 12 weeks.
So it’s not a PL program, I’m guessing the comp lifts are for strongman?
Comp lift is the standard squat, bench, dead, OHP.
But the theory is to work on weak points with variation lifts.
Doing that for 9 weeks, one week deload one weak max on 2 comp lifts for a pr eg squat and ohp and the next week bench and DL.
I don’t know if it’s working, but I learn a lot about my self and how much stress I can put on the body.
This is where I start questioning it. What is the purpose behind combining elements of so many systems? Because the way you explain it, sounds like it’s taking a bunch of 5/3/1 principles and then applying the ME/DE/RM system over the top of it. Except, Jim came out of Westside and wrote 5/3/1 not against that method but as a broader strength training system. Even with Forever, it doesn’t seem like he’s gone closer to the old Westside system at all. What I’m getting at is if Jim didn’t see a need to go back to ME/DE work, what did Brian see that Jim didn’t? Apart from a marketable product, I mean.
Look at WS4SB, for example. That does away with the DE side of things completely, and it’s arguably one of the most effective Westside-ish systems out there as a general strength builder.
This is a point I would disagree on. Doing maximal weights on lifts that you aren’t practising regularely is very demanding. The overall weight on the bar is not the only factor that detemines this but also movement efficiency and the nature of the movement itself. Also demand can be seen as neural fatigue (cns) and demand on passive and active structures.
For example I can’t use nearly as much weight on good mornings than I can on squats or deadlifts. I bet a 1RM good morning would be hella demanding on my back and hips. The soreness in my lower back will be greater than If I had done sumo deadlifts, which I execute regularely and which put less stress on the lower back by nature.
Bottom Line: I think using a variety of variations does not put less but more stress on the body and increase risk of injury. Although it fits strongman as there are so many different lifts.
Don’t alot of his programs have westside stuff anyway, it isn’t just darkhorse? Alphas strong as a truck
The main lifts are the same as power lifting plus the OHP. I think that’s because those are the lifts on which we all focus (for some silly reason). Average Joe’s want to boost their “main lifts”.
If you change your perspective about the program to one that addresses the general public instead of any kind of specialist then it might make more sense.
Brian sells programs to folks through the internet. It wouldn’t be the first time someone has to have a prerequisite base of knowledge and skill to perform the lifts correctly. Perhaps it’s not a beginner’s program (even though he says it is).
Average Joe typically has a full time job. He/she wants to lose some fat, add some muscle, improve conditioning, and get stronger. This program might fit the bill for that. It’s tough to burn the candle at all four ends but this might be one of the better ways to approach it. I’d guess that you’ll see the most improvement in conditioning. If nutrition is decent then you’ll also see physique improvements. Lastly, you’ll see strength improvement. But it could be the smallest improvement compared to a more specialized program.
If I recall correctly, this is also like a beta test for Brian. He’s looking for feedback. Success stories will be featured later, but if he hears a lot of negative feedback then he’ll make tweaks (I assume).
I think he described it as a combination of Westside, undulating intensities, linear progression, and something else LOL
It may not be a sustainable program but we see a lot of those around here. Run the program for its duration and then switch it up. CT has quite a few programs that he says will run you into the ground if you go longer than one round.
Do you think it’s a decent program for the Average Joe that I described? Remember, it doesn’t have to be the best program on the market; it just has to be an option for people willing to buy something over the internet.
And I’m not knocking Brian in any way with that last comment. It’s the nature of the beast in today’s coaching/training world.
Great discussion here. Alpha even admits this darkhorse program is more “reppy” than his own training. But he is a firm believer in the giant sets.
I’m thinking this program is good. But with so little lifting experience my observations are limited. I’ve learned a ton of variation lifts and dynamic effort work. I know how different lifts affect my body now and couldn’t say I would have explored them before this program.
I think this style of training, like westside, is athlete specific and won’t be for everyone. It is geared to people that love to absolutely punish themselves in the gym. Something clicked on me the last couple of workouts and my recovery ability is improving and I hit a huge PR today +70lbs. Brian says these kinds of PRs will pop up out of nowhere on this program. Physical adaptation?
I’ve got 4-5 weeks left before testing and I’m thinking an increase of 15-20% in my lifts is coming. For a more advanced lifter I’m not sure they could expect those kinds of numbers…
In 5 - 9 weeks it will be revealed if it worked for the couple of us that’s doing the damn thing, unless we break
It might not be the best program, but I like it, and find that my body is sore in a different way.
This will be the variations for the upcoming three weeks.
OHP - Z press
Squat - Front squat
bench - floor press (I have never done them, might end up with close grip)
DL - snatch grip DL
You are gonna love that set of variations. The floor press and z press are awesome. I picked up the snatch grip dead lift this cycle and my upper back is growing again. I hit the upper back on DL day and bench day (rows), OHP day(pull-ups), squat day is the only day my upperback gets a break