The Culture Wars: The Radical Progressives' Agenda

[quote]otar wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

I would like peer-reviewed sources on this. Because this smells like Billy Bullshit to me.[/quote]

I actually don’t blame you for your lack of awareness on this issue. If I had listened to the main stream liberal media I would be thinking the same thing.

Here is something better than what you’ve asked for. Here are the facts from the CDC.

It isn’t pretty.

MSM (men who have sex with men) account for nearly half of the approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV in the US.

MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in in the US (61%).

The list goes on and on…It’s a very sad story. Homosexual promiscuity has lead them to not only ill physical health but a poor mental state as well leading every group in suicide, anxiety and depression.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/fastfacts-msm-final508comp.pdf
[/quote]

Do you believe that people who are homosexual are INNATELY driven to behave this way?

Do you believe that every homosexual man who have “suicide, anxiety and depression” is because of their “promiscuity”? Do you believe that every homosexual man who suffers from depression is promiscuous, rather than prejudice against them.

I’m not denying your statistics. There’s FAR FAR more to it than that though.

Because although I am aware of minority of homosexual men who engage in such deplorable behaviour, it’s far from the norm. [/quote]

I agree that behavior is more of the minority. People like ZEB seem to base their information on the negative stereotypical views and only research facts that align with those beliefs.[/quote]

No actually people like Zeb have taken the time to study the issue and have the facts at hand. That those facts do not represent your false belief shouldn’t bother you nearly so much as walking around with that false belief.

Now google CDC (and there are other sites as well) and get the facts on what, not all, but the majority of homosexual men do.

It isn’t pretty and you won’t see it or hear it in the mainstream liberal media but it is nonetheless true.

Now run along…[/quote]

It doesn’t really work when you ignore other parts of the source that directly contradict what you were saying. “Social discrimination and cultural issues: For some MSM, social and economic factors, including homophobia, stigma, and lack of access to health care may increase risk behaviors or be a barrier to receiving HIV prevention services.” I’m sure the highly trained epidemiologists at the CDC chose to include that in their fact sheet for a reason.[/quote]

I don’t doubt for a second that any hate directed at this group adds to their problems in various ways. However, the fact that suicide rates for homosexuals are just as high in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted for many years speaks to the heart of the issue. There is a lifestyle of pain and poor choices that is at the heart of the matter.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]otar wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

I would like peer-reviewed sources on this. Because this smells like Billy Bullshit to me.[/quote]

I actually don’t blame you for your lack of awareness on this issue. If I had listened to the main stream liberal media I would be thinking the same thing.

Here is something better than what you’ve asked for. Here are the facts from the CDC.

It isn’t pretty.

MSM (men who have sex with men) account for nearly half of the approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV in the US.

MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in in the US (61%).

The list goes on and on…It’s a very sad story. Homosexual promiscuity has lead them to not only ill physical health but a poor mental state as well leading every group in suicide, anxiety and depression.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/fastfacts-msm-final508comp.pdf
[/quote]

Do you believe that people who are homosexual are INNATELY driven to behave this way?

Do you believe that every homosexual man who have “suicide, anxiety and depression” is because of their “promiscuity”? Do you believe that every homosexual man who suffers from depression is promiscuous, rather than prejudice against them.

I’m not denying your statistics. There’s FAR FAR more to it than that though.

Because although I am aware of minority of homosexual men who engage in such deplorable behaviour, it’s far from the norm. [/quote]

I agree that behavior is more of the minority. People like ZEB seem to base their information on the negative stereotypical views and only research facts that align with those beliefs.[/quote]

No actually people like Zeb have taken the time to study the issue and have the facts at hand. That those facts do not represent your false belief shouldn’t bother you nearly so much as walking around with that false belief.

Now google CDC (and there are other sites as well) and get the facts on what, not all, but the majority of homosexual men do.

It isn’t pretty and you won’t see it or hear it in the mainstream liberal media but it is nonetheless true.

Now run along…[/quote]

It doesn’t really work when you ignore other parts of the source that directly contradict what you were saying. “Social discrimination and cultural issues: For some MSM, social and economic factors, including homophobia, stigma, and lack of access to health care may increase risk behaviors or be a barrier to receiving HIV prevention services.” I’m sure the highly trained epidemiologists at the CDC chose to include that in their fact sheet for a reason.[/quote]

I don’t doubt for a second that any hate directed at this group adds to their problems in various ways. However, the fact that suicide rates for homosexuals are just as high in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted for many years speaks to the heart of the issue. There is a lifestyle of pain and poor choices that is at the heart of the matter.[/quote]

Interesting, can you provide any statistics on that? I tried to find some for Canada since the introduction of gay marriage but it appears as though no one has done that work so if you have some information regarding the Netherlands situation I’d appreciate a link.

It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

^^
Can someone tell me how the above justifies discrimination from other groups?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

^^
Can someone tell me how the above justifies discrimination from other groups?[/quote]

Who called for discrimination against that group?

[quote]otar wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]otar wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

I would like peer-reviewed sources on this. Because this smells like Billy Bullshit to me.[/quote]

I actually don’t blame you for your lack of awareness on this issue. If I had listened to the main stream liberal media I would be thinking the same thing.

Here is something better than what you’ve asked for. Here are the facts from the CDC.

It isn’t pretty.

MSM (men who have sex with men) account for nearly half of the approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV in the US.

MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in in the US (61%).

The list goes on and on…It’s a very sad story. Homosexual promiscuity has lead them to not only ill physical health but a poor mental state as well leading every group in suicide, anxiety and depression.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/fastfacts-msm-final508comp.pdf
[/quote]

Do you believe that people who are homosexual are INNATELY driven to behave this way?

Do you believe that every homosexual man who have “suicide, anxiety and depression” is because of their “promiscuity”? Do you believe that every homosexual man who suffers from depression is promiscuous, rather than prejudice against them.

I’m not denying your statistics. There’s FAR FAR more to it than that though.

Because although I am aware of minority of homosexual men who engage in such deplorable behaviour, it’s far from the norm. [/quote]

I agree that behavior is more of the minority. People like ZEB seem to base their information on the negative stereotypical views and only research facts that align with those beliefs.[/quote]

No actually people like Zeb have taken the time to study the issue and have the facts at hand. That those facts do not represent your false belief shouldn’t bother you nearly so much as walking around with that false belief.

Now google CDC (and there are other sites as well) and get the facts on what, not all, but the majority of homosexual men do.

It isn’t pretty and you won’t see it or hear it in the mainstream liberal media but it is nonetheless true.

Now run along…[/quote]

It doesn’t really work when you ignore other parts of the source that directly contradict what you were saying. “Social discrimination and cultural issues: For some MSM, social and economic factors, including homophobia, stigma, and lack of access to health care may increase risk behaviors or be a barrier to receiving HIV prevention services.” I’m sure the highly trained epidemiologists at the CDC chose to include that in their fact sheet for a reason.[/quote]

I don’t doubt for a second that any hate directed at this group adds to their problems in various ways. However, the fact that suicide rates for homosexuals are just as high in the Netherlands where homosexuality has been accepted for many years speaks to the heart of the issue. There is a lifestyle of pain and poor choices that is at the heart of the matter.[/quote]

Interesting, can you provide any statistics on that? I tried to find some for Canada since the introduction of gay marriage but it appears as though no one has done that work so if you have some information regarding the Netherlands situation I’d appreciate a link.[/quote]

I have this but there is more out there:

[quote]Eight Times More Likely to Commit Suicide

The basic finding is that gay men in partnerships were eight times more likely to commit suicide than heterosexual men. In contrast, although lesbian women in partnerships were 65% more likely to commit suicide, this was not statistically significant. This data for completed suicides is significant and rare. For the first time there is rather solid data that completed suicides - not just attempted suicides - are higher among partnered gay men than among heterosexual men (most of whom are partnered.) The authors of the paper comment that this factor of eight times more likely is remarkably high, higher than any known figures in the literature for attempted suicides for any group of homosexual men.

Of course the question will be asked if there is something in the partnership structure itself which is bitterly disappointing. (It is already known that divorce rates for homosexual partnerships are higher than for heterosexual partnerships (Andersson et al. 2006; Balsam et al. 2008). However, there is no evidence for this, rather some evidence against it, because the result for women in partnerships is not significantly higher than normal. If partnership itself were a factor, one would imagine the women’s data would also be very much higher. So there appears to be something of a gender difference here. If the stereotypes are valid at all, it might be that lesbians are more interested in relationship and that sex is less important and that the reverse applies for gay men. Yet, it is not clear that this would lead to increased suicides. It is rather more clear for gay males that institutional partnerships are not the protection against suicide that might be expected, and that arguments for partnership privileges on the grounds of reducing harm, must be examined very carefully.[/quote]

http://narth.com/docs/nodefense.html

ZEB is probably one of the few people I would have a problem with face to face on this site. For all the disagreements I have with the so-called conservatives, the majority of them are good people when it comes down to it. At the end of the day, I would happily buy a round for most of them.

Not ZEB.

ZEB, your supposed age grants you nothing, your willful misinterpreting of posts makes you a fool.

No one has denied the 61% statistic, they are denying what YOU have labeled the cause. You are as bad as the celebrities who preach messages of ignorance about vaccines and homeopathic medicine from a platform of fear and ignorance.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
ZEB is probably one of the few people I would have a problem with face to face on this site. For all the disagreements I have with the so-called conservatives, the majority of them are good people when it comes down to it. At the end of the day, I would happily buy a round for most of them.

Not ZEB.

ZEB, your supposed age grants you nothing, your willful misinterpreting of posts makes you a fool.

No one has denied the 61% statistic, they are denying what YOU have labeled the cause. You are as bad as the celebrities who preach messages of ignorance about vaccines and homeopathic medicine from a platform of fear and ignorance.[/quote]

You wouldn’t have a beer with me? Oh no what will I ever do?

As to the facts (ouch you hate those things) my assertion was that over all homosexuals are their own worst enemy because of the poor choices that they make. When asked to post evidence I posted statistics from the CDC to demonstrate my point. That more than half of all new HIV cases in the US are from homosexuals is a staggering statistics. Especially considering that gay men are at most a population of 4%. And this clearly demonstrates that many homosexual men (certainly not all and never said all) are making poor choices.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/fastfacts-msm-final508comp.pdf

If you disagree with it that means that you think that most are making good choices. Based on the evidence (and there is far more than what I posted) they are not. And I made no other judgment than to state that many are making poor choices.

Now if that offends your free thinking progressive politically correct mind I guess that’s just one more hardship that you’ll have to live with.

Facts are a hell of a thing to deal with when you live in a rainbow world of PC lies.

By the way, Mak I don’t drink with people like you so don’t bother with your foolish “what if’s” And here’s another clue for you most conservatives on this site wouldn’t give you the time of day if not for this message board. All you are to them and to me is a handy antagonist.

Now you can rant on about how you don’t like me or you can come back with some facts to rebut…for a change.

Zeb,

I want you to answer this question:

Is the high rate of depression among homosexuals, in your opinion, due to their lifestyle?

Because that is the implication you made

I find your points of the elevated rate of HIV among homosexuals in comparsion to higher suicide and depression rates to be mutually exclusive. One does not imply the other. Unless you are suggesting there is one homogenous block of homosexuals, with one homogenous lifestyle.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
It has been proven over and over again that the biggest enemy of homosexual men is their own poor choices. There is no one who can dispute that it is a fact.

^^
Can someone tell me how the above justifies discrimination from other groups?[/quote]

Who called for discrimination against that group?

[/quote]

Christians

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Zeb,

I want you to answer this question:

Is the high rate of depression among homosexuals, in your opinion, due to their lifestyle?

Because that is the implication you made

I find your points of the elevated rate of HIV among homosexuals in comparsion to higher suicide and depression rates to be mutually exclusive. One does not imply the other. Unless you are suggesting there is one homogenous block of homosexuals, with one homogenous lifestyle. [/quote]

I think that when a man builds a lifestyle around trolling for strange men in unseemly places night after night that leads to emotional problems. However, that is not mutually exclusive to gay men. I think that heterosexuals who have a promiscuous lifestyle (over a long period of time) set themselves up for similar problems. However, as evidenced by the horrible statistics which surround homosexual men it’s very apparent that many of them (not all) create their own problems both physically and emotionally.

[quote]Bambi wrote:

How is stopping a council from opening its meeting with prayers proof that Christians are being driven underground? Why should a public body open with prayers rather than doing council work?

[/quote]

It’s not an “either/or” thing. Saying a prayer at the opening of a council meeting is not going to prevent work from getting done. A public body should open with prayers out of tradition if nothing else.

What benefit does tradition have? Read Edmund Burke.

That’s up to them surely? Why should smartarse atheists be able to attack an institution and overturn centuries of tradition? Harmless tradition, not the Islamic call to prayer blaring out of a loudspeaker five times a day.

“A man who took a Devon council to court over holding prayers during meetings is given an Ã?£1000 award from the National Secular Society.”

The church doesn’t run anything. And these were just council members saying a prayer at the start of the meeting. Nothing to do with any church running the council.

I’m not slandering homosexuals. I was pointing out that it is risky behaviour. Most homosexual men actually do engage in the sort of risky behaviour I described. Now if that’s “stereotyping” then so be it.

[quote]Bambi wrote:

For F**K’S SAKE

That’s f**king disgraceful and you know it.[/quote]

I’m talking about what is known as ‘the gay lifestyle.’ These themes are pervasive throughout gay literature, film, art etc. I’m not trying to build a stereotype of gay culture. It is what they have made of it.

And the poster I was replying to brought up gays being assaulted comparing it to the OP. A better comparison would be Jews fleeing the continent again and having to hide their yarmulkes and such to avoid being identified. Are gays being forced to leave their Marlon Brando hats and seatless trousers at home? I’m not denying that gays are sometimes attacked by bigots because they are gay. It’s just really not a valid comparison and as I mentioned the ‘gay lifestyle’ and ‘gay culture’ revel in risk taking behaviour.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
‘Lord Carey said Christians are being treated like bigots and face the same sort of persecution homosexuals were once subjected to’.

LOL

Sensationalist gibberish!!..statistically speaking, a very large percentage of homosexuals have been PHYSICALLY assaulted (at least once) just for being gay…I don’t know of ANY christians who have ever been physically attacked JUST because of their faith. Laughable comparison. [/quote]

Oh of course not, religious violence never happens in Britain.

BBC News - 7 July timeline: The story of the attacks

Is this Britain's first white honour killing victim? The happy but headstrong girl, 17, whose love across the racial divide had a tragic end | Daily Mail Online

Those two sources have little to nothing to do with CHRISTIANS being ‘persecuted’ because of their faith.

If a public figure had said Muslims are now just as hated & or at the very least COVERTLY discrimated against/persecuted I think they may have had a fair point

Christians though…gimme a break!!!..in 100 years time, maybe Christins will be the new Lepers on the block, for now I’d say they are just in the process of being relegated.

  • To go to back to the article itself, this is basically an issue of DRESS CODE. Of course, a dimmmunition of dress-code rights COULD lead to or fuel certain anti-faith sentiments.

That being said, is keeping your religious jewellery out of public view really that big of a deal?

I’m sure no employer is going to start strip searching/metal detecting their employees to search for crucifixes etc.

Lots of other non-religious bodily decorations are not GENERALLY accepted/approved of in the workplace, this is merely a new addition to a rather arbitrary list.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
Zeb,

I want you to answer this question:

Is the high rate of depression among homosexuals, in your opinion, due to their lifestyle?

Because that is the implication you made

I find your points of the elevated rate of HIV among homosexuals in comparsion to higher suicide and depression rates to be mutually exclusive. One does not imply the other. Unless you are suggesting there is one homogenous block of homosexuals, with one homogenous lifestyle. [/quote]

I think that when a man builds a lifestyle around trolling for strange men in unseemly places night after night that leads to emotional problems. However, that is not mutually exclusive to gay men. I think that heterosexuals who have a promiscuous lifestyle (over a long period of time) set themselves up for similar problems. However, as evidenced by the horrible statistics which surround homosexual men it’s very apparent that many of them (not all) create their own problems both physically and emotionally.

[/quote]

But would you recognise that is a stereotype that, while unfortunately true in some cases, is nowhere near true or indicative of most people who define themselves as homosexual?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

How is stopping a council from opening its meeting with prayers proof that Christians are being driven underground? Why should a public body open with prayers rather than doing council work?

[/quote]

It’s not an “either/or” thing. Saying a prayer at the opening of a council meeting is not going to prevent work from getting done. A public body should open with prayers out of tradition if nothing else.

What benefit does tradition have? Read Edmund Burke.

That’s up to them surely? Why should smartarse atheists be able to attack an institution and overturn centuries of tradition? Harmless tradition, not the Islamic call to prayer blaring out of a loudspeaker five times a day.

“A man who took a Devon council to court over holding prayers during meetings is given an Ã??Ã?£1000 award from the National Secular Society.”

The church doesn’t run anything. And these were just council members saying a prayer at the start of the meeting. Nothing to do with any church running the council.

I’m not slandering homosexuals. I was pointing out that it is risky behaviour. Most homosexual men actually do engage in the sort of risky behaviour I described. Now if that’s “stereotyping” then so be it.[/quote]

No my argument is not with tradition do not deflect it into that. My argument is that prayers here should have no place on a council. If people want to make laws based on their christian beliefs as long as a majority agree with it, fine. If councillors are Christian fine. But the whole council, if there are people who are not christian should not be co-opted into a prayer that they might not believe in.

The National Secular Society are a pile of wank I’ll give you that.

You’re (and ZEB"s) idea of assless pants wearing homosexuals looking for sex is NOTHING LIKE how most people who define themselves as homosexual act. If you knew people who were gay, or had ever been to a gay nightclub, you would know this.

[quote]Bambi wrote:

You’re (and ZEB"s) idea of assless pants wearing homosexuals looking for sex is NOTHING LIKE how most people who define themselves as homosexual act. If you knew people who were gay, or had ever been to a gay nightclub, you would know this.
[/quote]

While it’s true I don’t hang out at gay night clubs I have met my share of gay men and women. I do understand the many poor choices that many mostly young gay males make.

You cannot lead the way in HIV, STD’s, Anxiety, Depression and Suicide without a good percentage of that group making some very poor choices. But I do think it’s mostly the younger gay males who are this foolish. And the numbers will back me up on that claim.

For example, [quote]H.I.V. infection â?? the virus that causes AIDS â?? in gay men under age 30 rose 32 percent between 2001 and 2006. Among black and Hispanic men, the figure was 34 percent. Most troubling, the number of new diagnoses among the youngest men in the study, those between ages 13 and 19, doubled.[/quote]

And…

                  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/aids/countries/us.html

One more point probably worth mentioning since I get a great amount of hate directed at me from idiots like Mak (see his post above). I post the truth about gay men because I care and never once have I used attack language when referring to any homosexual male or female. It’s easy to mouth off on a message board about equal rights bla bla bla, and then go on your merry way. But if you love someone do you allow them to kill themselves? I do a decent amount of volunteer work at our hospital and I’ve helped AIDS (and other) patients who were terminal and even had one practically die in my arms. It is not a pretty site and something that I would not wish on any human being. So my first wish is that the more liberal and young on this board would forgo judging me. Save your assumed stereotype of what this conservative is like because you are not even close! You don’t have nearly the experience in life or on this very topic that I do. All many of you know is what you see in the liberal media, and they are NOT telling you the truth. If you want to help you don’t encourage them to engage in life threatening behavior. You discourage that action as I have tried to do many times. That my friends is called real love.

Maybe some of my posts will wake up those young gay males who might be making some very bad choices. And help them realize that they’re playing a game of Russian roulette when they live a risky lifestyle and continue to pile one poor choice on top of another.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

You’re (and ZEB"s) idea of assless pants wearing homosexuals looking for sex is NOTHING LIKE how most people who define themselves as homosexual act. If you knew people who were gay, or had ever been to a gay nightclub, you would know this.
[/quote]

While it’s true I don’t hang out at gay night clubs I have met my share of gay men and women. I do understand the many poor choices that many mostly young gay males make.

You cannot lead the way in HIV, STD’s, Anxiety, Depression and Suicide without a good percentage of that group making some very poor choices. But I do think it’s mostly the younger gay males who are this foolish. And the numbers will back me up on that claim.

For example, [quote]H.I.V. infection �¢?? the virus that causes AIDS �¢?? in gay men under age 30 rose 32 percent between 2001 and 2006. Among black and Hispanic men, the figure was 34 percent. Most troubling, the number of new diagnoses among the youngest men in the study, those between ages 13 and 19, doubled.[/quote]

And…

                  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/aids/countries/us.html

One more point probably worth mentioning since I get a great amount of hate directed at me from idiots like Mak (see his post above). I post the truth about gay men because I care and never once have I used attack language when referring to any homosexual male or female. It’s easy to mouth off on a message board about equal rights bla bla bla, and then go on your merry way. But if you love someone do you allow them to kill themselves? I do a decent amount of volunteer work at our hospital and I’ve helped AIDS (and other) patients who were terminal and even had one practically die in my arms. It is not a pretty site and something that I would not wish on any human being. So my first wish is that the more liberal and young on this board would forgo judging me. Save your assumed stereotype of what this conservative is like because you are not even close! You don’t have nearly the experience in life or on this very topic that I do. All many of you know is what you see in the liberal media, and they are NOT telling you the truth. If you want to help you don’t encourage them to engage in life threatening behavior. You discourage that action as I have tried to do many times. That my friends is called real love.

Maybe some of my posts will wake up those young gay males who might be making some very bad choices. And help them realize that they’re playing a game of Russian roulette when they live a risky lifestyle and continue to pile one poor choice on top of another.

[/quote]

ZEB, you cannot link high links of HIV and suicide anxiety and depression together, they do not follow.

Of my friends who are homosexual, many are depressed due to familial rejection or by friends, by disapproval by work colleagues. They have not brought these on themselves, as many do not even tell people they’re gay, unless you’re arguing by being homosexual you bring it upon yourself. Most of them are sexually monogomous and are safe, like the majority of heterosexual people so it’s nothing to do with their lifestyle, as you imply. Maybe its different in America.

And I volunteer in a hospice too and a lot of my job at the moment involves working with disabled children so please don’t tell me I’m just making platitudes to equal rights for minorities. No one here is condoning young people getting AIDS/HIV, whatever their sexuality. What I initially had a problem with was SM’s bigoted stereotype of all gay man soliciting people for sex in toilets. It’s an absoutely foul thing to say.

The topic of homosexuals only came up because it was related to discrimination, part of the thread topic. ZEB is either trying to justify discrimination against homosexuals OR direct the discussion in a new direction to promote his anti-gay agenda.