The Constitution and the Bible

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

There have been hundreds of books written on the subject of the evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and these evidences are many and varied. Most people today, unfortunately, have not read any of these books. In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.

Nevertheless the Bible writers claimed repeatedly that they were transmitting the very Word of God, infallible and authoritative in the highest degree. This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.

But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, then what hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world?

If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel’s promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

Unique Historical Accuracy

Learn more about Archaeology and the Bible

The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

“No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.”

Scientific Accuracy
Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

and many others.
These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man’s everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible – in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.

Unique Structure

The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.

The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will continually find remarkable structural and mathematical patterns woven throughout its fabric, with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion.

The one consistent theme of the Bible, developing in grandeur from Genesis to Revelation, is God’s great work in the creation and redemption of all things, through His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible’s Unique Effect

The Bible is unique also in terms of its effect on individual men and on the history of nations. It is the all-time best seller, appealing both to hearts and minds, beloved by at least some in every race or nation or tribe to which it has gone, rich or poor, scholar or simple, king or commoner, men of literally every background and walk of life. No other book has ever held such universal appeal nor produced such lasting effects.

One final evidence that the Bible is true is found in the testimony of those who have believed it. Multitudes of people, past and present, have found from personal experience that its promises are true, its counsel is sound, its commands and restrictions are wise, and its wonderful message of salvation meets every need for both time and eternity.

22

The KJV was instigated by one of the most unpopular kings ever to sit the English throne (mainly because he was Catholic and Scottish) who needed something to bolster his position through the Divine Right Of Kings.

And the author of that pamphlet had no evidence that anyone else could go and look up.

Just one day I’d like to see one of these guys at an actual scholarly conference and duke it out with guys who really study this stuff.

23

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
I understand your point. Have you read the Bible?

[/quote]

I have, but at the time it was more as a piece of literature than a spiritual tome.

I’m not nocking anyone’s feelings on it. If you look at it as a piece of art - well, many people have different types of art that move them, and each person feels differently from each piece of art. My beef is when someone faults someone else for not feeling and/or seeing things the way they do.

It just happens that the Bible has influenced so many people and thus it is at the center of it all. But what if we took a look at something more recent. What about the Book of Mormon. Only a couple hundred years old. There are many Mormons that take it as literal. What if I said that if you read it the way it is meant to, you will find God? Have you read that? If you did and didn’t find God, well… What about all the other holy books (Koran, Torah, etc) Which is the true path to God, if there is one?

These examples works because other people also look on it as a holy tome. But I could easily do it with another book. “If you read the Grapes of Wrath, you will find God.” When you attach the agenda with the action, it makes for a difficult followthrough. And with many people I would expect it would result in something called “faking it”.

Once we divorce the agenda from the action, then we can begin to look at things objectively. What makes the Bible so above scrutiny when the Constitution is not? What about the other holy books? How come when people critique (not bash) the Bible they are seen as evil or misguided, while critiquing the Constitution is accepted?

24

Im an agnostic, i really havent figured it all out yet for myself i dont know what is out there but i like Christianity most of the time. It gives people a sense of peace belonging and that they are a part of something much bigger than they are and hopefully a sense of morals to go by.

I personally dont care for the moralizing crap they do to people that dont agree w/ them - " you are a person doing wrong b/c you drink and f%*k girls haha " . Some people need to be told what to do. Some people need a guy to stand there and tell them how to live their lives. I still havent figured it all out yet but there are things i like and dont like about Christianity - i’ve been a christian for several years very active in church and church theatre.

I need to go smoke a blunt later

25

One reason the Constitution is in need of repair every now and then is simply that it was written by men. Humans are not perfect and never will so anything they do will not be perfect.

The Bible is the inspired word of God, God Himself makes certain of its accuracies from translation to translation.

In terms of understanding the Bible, again we’re all humans and will never fully understand the Bible and God until we have passed on, met with God, and the results of the fall are repaired. The Bible speaks to someone not by their interpretation but in how the Holy Spirit reveals the words to that person.

People make fun of the Bible all the time and belittle the ‘ignorant’ who follow its teachnings. But the truth is the Bible anwsers all the questions man can have such as “where am I from?” “Why am I here?” “Where am I going?” “Where is history going?” “Why is there pain and suffering in the world?” etc, etc.

26

[quote]Nu-Naiy wrote:

People make fun of the Bible all the time and belittle the ‘ignorant’ who follow its teachnings. But the truth is the Bible anwsers all the questions man can have such as “where am I from?” “Why am I here?” “Where am I going?” “Where is history going?” “Why is there pain and suffering in the world?” etc, etc.[/quote]

That’s because the answers that are given are ridiculous and defy common sense. What makes the bible hold any more weight than say Greek mythology? That has answers to everything to, although everyone would agree that only someone ignorant would actually believe and base their life on it.

27

[quote]JonP wrote:
Nu-Naiy wrote:

People make fun of the Bible all the time and belittle the ‘ignorant’ who follow its teachnings. But the truth is the Bible anwsers all the questions man can have such as “where am I from?” “Why am I here?” “Where am I going?” “Where is history going?” “Why is there pain and suffering in the world?” etc, etc.

That’s because the answers that are given are ridiculous and defy common sense. What makes the bible hold any more weight than say Greek mythology? That has answers to everything to, although everyone would agree that only someone ignorant would actually believe and base their life on it.[/quote]

Well for one Greek mythology has gods based upon men. They murder, committ adultry, are dishonest, greedy, etc. They are nothing more than puffed up immortal men, nothing more. The God of the Bible is beyond man He is the alpha and the omega. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, omni-present, etc. There is little comparison between the Greek religions and Christianity.

What do you base your life upon? What gives you knowledge of right from wrong? Why are you here? Why is the world here. As of yet nothing else has come close to giving as good of answers to these questions as has the Bible. In what way do they defy common sense? In my mind the Bible makes perfect common sense in comparison to some of the ideas that others have put forward.

28

[quote]tuffloud wrote:

Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel’s promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

Unique Historical Accuracy

Learn more about Archaeology and the Bible

The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

“No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.”

Scientific Accuracy
Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

and many others.
These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man’s everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible – in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.

[/quote]

Tuffloud,

Well said. Here is more food for thought:

Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

A passage written over 2,500 years ago. Any relevance to our world today?

Also, a mathemetician calculated that the probability of only 9 prophecies concerning Jesus’s life coming true by chance was calculated to be 10 to the 49th power. As you pointed out, there were many more prophecies that came true than that. For the numerically challenged, that is approximately the number of neutrons estimated to exist in the entire universe.

I remember Dr. Michael Colgan stating in one of his books that when a well known scientist explained to him the absolute precision that neeeded to occur for life to even be possible on this earth, it was the statistical equivalent of throwing a dart from one end of the universe to the other and hitting a bull’s eye. That convinced him that there must have been an architect for this incomprehensible complexity. Guess what, there is.

I’d love to see what sort of moral code or Constitution “might” have existed without the Bible as a reference. But hey, anything is “statistically” possible, right? I mean, I have a Rhesus monkey in my entertainment room writing the sequel to War and Peace. I haven’t been able to keep him from humping my Playstation long enough to actually get him started, but I’ll keep you guys posted.

29

If what Nephrom says is true, and Vegita is looking to interpret the Bible as a literary construct, I’d suggest Vegita look at the author Jack Miles who wrote “God, a biography” and “Christ, a crisis in the life of God”. Both excellent books well worth reading.

30

Well for one Greek mythology has gods based upon men. They murder, committ adultry, are dishonest, greedy, etc. They are nothing more than puffed up immortal men, nothing more. The God of the Bible is beyond man He is the alpha and the omega. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, omni-present, etc. There is little comparison between the Greek religions and Christianity.

Have you been near an open Bible lately? In the Hebrew Tanakh (what Christians consider to be the Old Testament, only in a slightly different order) the character of God changes dramatically from beginning to end. God is not “all knowing”, why else would he ask Adam and Eve the questions he does in Genesis. If God is “all powerful”, why does he make a bet with Satan (the adversary, not the christian devil) over Job?

In the first chapter of Genesis, the only character that tells the truth is the snake. God lies, Adam and Eve lie.

31

[quote]JonP wrote:
Last time I checked people weren’t devoting their lives to the Iliad and attacking those who didn’t believe in Zues, like you bible thumpers do against other religions you don’t agree with.
[/quote]

I think it was a bible critic that started this thread, may I not respond?

Besides, since I was “attacking” Vegita, why not let him stick up for himself.

32

[quote]guerriere wrote:
And the author of that pamphlet had no evidence that anyone else could go and look up.[/quote]
I found that article after a one minute Google search. It’s just something to get you started. If you really want to know more, go research it yourself.

Really, what scholarly conferences would you be frequenting?

I have read significant portions of the original 1611 KJV. Not much different between it and the current addition, except spelling, typesetting, and some word usage.

33

Yea, so it looks like I shouldn’t start a thread and then go play golf and not check back till the next day.

To answer a few questions about where I’m coming from, I was raised roman catholic and have read most of the bible, though I’ve never sat and read it straight through. Regardless, I don’t need to read the bible or even understand it to question it’s accuracy. As I mentioned, if there are several different versions and revisions, and those are from I think someone said 1600’s or maybe someone said 1000AD, ok well thats about halfway to the new testament and 1/8th of the way to the writing of the old testament. Need I remind you that the further back you go the harder it was to even keep written records, let alone produce more than one copy of a single work.

Even if god himself moved the pen on the first writing. The first man who copied it might have screwed something up or changed something he saw a little differently. Maybe his reading and writing skills weren’t perfect and he thought one thing meant another. And then the second man copied the text again. Mind you back then all these “parts” of the bible were merely scrolls all separate from eachother. So it’s not even like someone sat down and copied the “bible” they were merely stories told probably tales told to children much like a fairy tale or something that held some wisdom to help the child understand morals and teach them things.

I have no problem with the bible as a book of morals, I do have a problem with a country being run by it. I have a problem with somone judging me because of it. I have a problem with someone telling me I am going to hell with a straight face and actually believing it. Due to the immenslley improbability, near impossibility of every sectioned being copied over word for word and then translated word for word correctly leaving the full and true meaning in tact, I can’t look at it as the untouched “word of god”.

V

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Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24

1 As Jesus was leaving the Temple grounds, his disciples pointed out to him the various Temple buildings. 2 But he told them, “Do you see all these buildings? I assure you, they will be so completely demolished that not one stone will be left on top of another!” 3 Later, Jesus sat on the slopes of the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and asked, “When will all this take place? And will there be any sign ahead of time to signal your return and the end of the world F132 ?”

4 Jesus told them, "Don’t let anyone mislead you. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will lead many astray. 6 And wars will break out near and far, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must come, but the end won’t follow immediately. 7 The nations and kingdoms will proclaim war against each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. 8 But all this will be only the beginning of the horrors to come. 9 "Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because of your allegiance to me. 10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. 11 And many false prophets will appear and will lead many people astray. 12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But those who endure to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then, finally, the end will come. 15 “The time will come when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about: the sacrilegious object that causes desecration F133 standing in the Holy Place” ? reader, pay attention! 16 "Then those in Judea must flee to the hills. 17 A person outside the house F134 must not go inside to pack. 18 A person in the field must not return even to get a coat. 19 How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for mothers nursing their babies in those days. 20 And pray that your flight will not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For that will be a time of greater horror than anything the world has ever seen or will ever see again. 22 In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, the entire human race will be destroyed. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones. 23 "Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t pay any attention. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you. 26 "So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it! 27 For as the lightning lights up the entire sky, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. 28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near. F135 29 "Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. F136 30 And then at last, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the nations of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. F137 31 And he will send forth his angels with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

32 "Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its buds become tender and its leaves begin to sprout, you know without being told that summer is near. 33 Just so, when you see the events I’ve described beginning to happen, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. 34 I assure you, this generation F138 will not pass from the scene before all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will remain forever. 36 "However, no one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. F139 Only the Father knows. 37 "When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the Flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the Flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes. 40 "Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left. 42 So be prepared, because you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. 43 "Know this: A homeowner who knew exactly when a burglar was coming would stay alert and not permit the house to be broken into. 44 You also must be ready all the time. For the Son of Man will come when least expected. 45 "Who is a faithful, sensible servant, to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his household and feeding his family? 46 If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. 47 I assure you, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. 48 But if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ 49 and begins oppressing the other servants, partying, and getting drunk ? 50 well, the master will return unannounced and unexpected. 51 He will tear the servant apart and banish him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

35

In reply to that gospel of matthew reading. I just watched war of the worlds and if that doesn’t sound like an alien in human clothing telling people that they are coming back and going to be harvesting people up then I don’t know what does.

“oh don’t fight, don’t resist, you will be taken and given eternal peace with the father.”

Sorry sounds a little scetchy to me.

V

36

[quote]Vegita wrote:
In reply to that gospel of matthew reading. I just watched war of the worlds and if that doesn’t sound like an alien in human clothing telling people that they are coming back and going to be harvesting people up then I don’t know what does.

“oh don’t fight, don’t resist, you will be taken and given eternal peace with the father.”

Sorry sounds a little scetchy to me.

V[/quote]

Actually that is the olivet discource.

Depending on your view of Revelation determines how you read it.

If you are a preterist, then this would be a description of The great persecution under Nero during 67 AD.

If you are a futurist, then you might take it to mean things still to come.

37

[quote]dmharper wrote:
Well for one Greek mythology has gods based upon men. They murder, committ adultry, are dishonest, greedy, etc. They are nothing more than puffed up immortal men, nothing more. The God of the Bible is beyond man He is the alpha and the omega. He is all-powerful, all-knowing, omni-present, etc. There is little comparison between the Greek religions and Christianity.

Have you been near an open Bible lately? In the Hebrew Tanakh (what Christians consider to be the Old Testament, only in a slightly different order) the character of God changes dramatically from beginning to end. God is not “all knowing”, why else would he ask Adam and Eve the questions he does in Genesis. If God is “all powerful”, why does he make a bet with Satan (the adversary, not the christian devil) over Job?

In the first chapter of Genesis, the only character that tells the truth is the snake. God lies, Adam and Eve lie.[/quote]

When God asks Adam and Eve questions it is not that He doesn’t know the answers it is to help make a point. Ever heard of the Socratic method? Teaching through asking questions. That’s whats going on. God never lied. Adam and Eve do lie, as they were now fallen creatures and sin had entered through there rebellion against God. The serpent, the devil, satan, lucifer, etc. Told half-truths. The devil states that if Eve ate of the fruit she would not die but become like God, having knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:1-6). The truth is of course that they did in fact come to knowledge that they had not previously had, that of evil. The lie is that in truth they did die and so did the earth with them. Up until this time nothing had died, now humans die, animals die, plants die, etc. Now it wasn’t instant physical death but there was an immediate spiritual death. Man no longer had/has the communion with God that Adam and Eve had (Genesis 3:14-21).

Okay, the devil is satan. Just getting that clear. God did not make a bet with satan regarding Job. If you read the entire book of Job you will find that the point of the book is one to show that no one, no matter how “holy” they look is sinless. The Bible is here to teach us and Job is teaching us not to believe in our own good works. Secondly it shows the Christian that there is more than the physical realm. What happens in the physical realm affects the spiritual and vice versa. It is showing that there is meaning to suffering, even when it happens to “good” people.

Now the most amazing part of the Bible is God’s plan for mankind. God created man in His image as a way to glorify Him (God). Now man had all he needed, a perfect life, and most importantly day to day communion with God. Was this good enough? No. Pride rose in man as it had within Lucifer and man rebelled attempting to become like God. Now many think that if God kept His word He would have killed Adam and Eve and create anew but man’s rebellion is in fact an even better way to showcase God’s awesome power and grace. As Soren Kierkegaard says “God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners.” This is the ultimate path of history. God’s return, judgement, and grace extended to those who will receive it.

Now before you continue on critiquing Christianity why not answer my questions, or can’t you?

38

[quote]guerriere wrote:
There are no books of the Bible that are 8,000 years old. The oldest fragments of Hebrew writing date from around 1250-1200 BC and are fragments of the song of Deborah and the song of Miriam.
[/quote]

The big question is “do scholars think the copies we have are reliable?”
Before we discovered the DSS the oldest Hebrew copies we had were from the 9th century. The DSS gave us a 1k year earlier Manuscript. Which was almost an exact duplicate.( you have to forgive the fact that certain spellings of words change overtime.)

According to Metzger a Bible scholar has more ground to stand on then any other scholar who examines ancient texts.

The DSS were just here in Houston a few months ago. The exhibit was very strict in talking about how similiar the text was to all other existing texts we have. What would the debate be? If it is almost identical ( and they are) why would there be debate? You should back it up with a reference instead of making a blind assertion, and expecting us to accept it.

Here is something to get you started.

Notice the keyword Restoration. You could also look for quotes by Metzger on the web.

Proof? Do you have any? I have heard people try to describe this as two accounts but no one has ever given it a dating that I am aware of. So give proof. Here is the explination for the two stories also. They are not two stories though, just a poor interpretaion of a few words.
http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html

In case you want to say the story was stolen from the babylonian account here is another link. (notes: stolen from them does not mean it happened during the date that you gave. If you gave the wrong date that does not mean all of your facts are wrong, but it does mean no one should trust what you say at face value.)
http://www.tektonics.org/af/babgenesis.html

Josephus listed all the books of the OT in his Contra Apion 1.8, dated c. 93-95 AD.

I have to ask is that the 4th century? It looks like first century, and it also looks like it was done by a someone who was not a sympathizer with the Christians. http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html

As for the jedp theory, do you actually give that credit?

Of course they are being debated. There are skeptics and believers. Both are trying to prove the other wrong. Debate does not mean you can’t come to a sounds and reasonable decision. People do it all the time. Republicans and Democrats debate all the time, and people decide what they “BELIEVE” is right everyday.

I accept it. I also accept that the fore fathers of this nation wrote our laws based on the Bible. I also accept that you make your decisions based on what you believe is right for your life. Why don’t you accept that I do the same? I would be more ok with things if most of what these movements are doing was not so up in your face about it. I personally don’t like having to explain to my kid alot of the things that I am having too. She is only 8, I would prefer for her to not have to think about all of the up in your face propaganda that these groups are forcing her to deal with.

[quote]
Have fun with this one.[/quote]

ehhh… I have had better. :slight_smile:

39

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Yea, so it looks like I shouldn’t start a thread and then go play golf and not check back till the next day.

To answer a few questions about where I’m coming from, I was raised roman catholic and have read most of the bible, though I’ve never sat and read it straight through. Regardless, I don’t need to read the bible or even understand it to question it’s accuracy. As I mentioned, if there are several different versions and revisions, and those are from I think someone said 1600’s or maybe someone said 1000AD, ok well thats about halfway to the new testament and 1/8th of the way to the writing of the old testament. Need I remind you that the further back you go the harder it was to even keep written records, let alone produce more than one copy of a single work.

Even if god himself moved the pen on the first writing. The first man who copied it might have screwed something up or changed something he saw a little differently. Maybe his reading and writing skills weren’t perfect and he thought one thing meant another. And then the second man copied the text again. Mind you back then all these “parts” of the bible were merely scrolls all separate from eachother. So it’s not even like someone sat down and copied the “bible” they were merely stories told probably tales told to children much like a fairy tale or something that held some wisdom to help the child understand morals and teach them things.

I have no problem with the bible as a book of morals, I do have a problem with a country being run by it. I have a problem with somone judging me because of it. I have a problem with someone telling me I am going to hell with a straight face and actually believing it. Due to the immenslley improbability, near impossibility of every sectioned being copied over word for word and then translated word for word correctly leaving the full and true meaning in tact, I can’t look at it as the untouched “word of god”.

V [/quote]

Vegita:

Given what you have written who in your opinion is Jesus Christ?

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In my opinion, Jesus was probably a very spiritually advanced person, who “got” much of the big picture. Mary probably wasn’t a virgin, peter and her probably came up with the story because thier parents would be pissed with her getting pregnant out of wedlock. So yes I view him as a man, spiritually gifted, much like a Gahndi or Buddah but a man none the less.

I actually think his teachings were spot on and that he did a great deal of good for humankind. Definately one of the top 5 most important people to ever live. I view religions kinda like a nice roadmap but waaaay outdated. Like back then when they were going strong, people didn’t have the capacity or the concepts to understand the things we do today. Now the “exact” teachings are a tad too simple to cover all the bases and while certain religions will try to adapt along with the people, others will simply try to keep the people and their cultures the same.

V