T Nation

The Clintons: Hurt or Help?


This one has been a tough one for me. Even the “pundits” can’t agree on this one. So I’ll throw it out to my friends at “The Nation”.

Do the Clintons help or hurt Obama’s election chances?

First Bill

Love or hate the guy…he is still very popular among many Americans. (Some even think that HE should be the one running; but that’s another thread)!

I think that Bill Clinton, in “measured doses” and at Strategic Points (certainly at the Convention), helps. On the talk show circuit and “winging it”, Bill stumbles and actually hurts Obama (like he did Hillary).

Thoughts?

Hillary

This really depends on how Hillary, her people, and her supporters play this.

Hillary supporters feel really “stung” by the Primaries, and are feeling like its being assumed that they will “fall in line” and support Obama at the Convention.

I think Hillary “helps” if she can calm this developing storm and hurts if she fans the flames.

I also think that she is best in “measured doses” because with Hillary, there is no “gray zone” among voters. She is either loved or hated.

Thoughts?

Mufasa

sabotage and run in '12

Are those facial expressions supposed to be smiles?

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
sabotage and run in '12[/quote]

I agree. There is no benefit to the Clinton’s if Obama gets elected.

They can help themselves - and if that happens in some way to dovetail with helping the Democratic party, that is a bonus.

Interestingly, I think Bill Clinton genuinely dislikes Obama personally, and as smooth and polished as Clinton is, I just don’t think he can fake it, so I see his ability to help Obama as minimal.

That, and Bill Clinton’s star has fallen among left-liberals, as Democratic politics have the life span and cyclical nature of following pop rock bands. Besides, left-liberals don’t need convincing - moderates, conservative Democrats, tweeners, etc.: these are the folks Obama needs to move in his camp.

I don’t see Clinton making the case to these folks.

Interesting thought you guys brought up;

There IS no benefit to the Clintons for Obama to win. (Especially if Hillary has her eyes on '012, which most feel she certainly has).

However, there are two things the Clintons can’t do:

  1. Sabatoge the convention and

  2. Appear too “obvious” in their '012 vision.

I think that they are both politically sauvvy enough to do both, don’t you think?

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Interesting thought you guys brought up;

There IS no benefit to the Clintons for Obama to win. (Especially if Hillary has her eyes on '012, which most feel she certainly has).

However, there are two things the Clintons can’t do:

  1. Sabatoge the convention and

  2. Appear too “obvious” in their '012 vision.

I think that they are both politically sauvvy enough to do both, don’t you think?

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t think they will try to steal the nomination at the convention but her followers will be heard.

I know more than a few thinking and liberal Dems that don’t like Obama at all and would like Hillary to still fight for it.

I think the Clinton’s will damn Obama with faint praise.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
They can help themselves - and if that happens in some way to dovetail with helping the Democratic party, that is a bonus.

Interestingly, I think Bill Clinton genuinely dislikes Obama personally, and as smooth and polished as Clinton is, I just don’t think he can fake it, so I see his ability to help Obama as minimal.

That, and Bill Clinton’s star has fallen among left-liberals, as Democratic politics have the life span and cyclical nature of following pop rock bands. Besides, left-liberals don’t need convincing - moderates, conservative Democrats, tweeners, etc.: these are the folks Obama needs to move in his camp.

I don’t see Clinton making the case to these folks.[/quote]

I agree. Bill dislikes Barack. Under any other set of circumstances, I think they would be strong allies. The fact is that Barack took what Bill believed was Hillary’s. And he took it personally. The Clintons’ plan was to “let” Obama get the nomination in 2016. Now Bill is in a position to help Obama win the election but he just can’t bring himself to do it.

Hillary has come full circle and will do what is asked of her. She will impress at the convention. The problem for the Clintons is that they are both extremely polarizing and Obama seems reluctant to use them. Of course, Gore made that mistake in 2000…

I stand by my opinion that Hillary will make a run for the nomination at the convention.

Arrogance knows no bondaries and Bill and Hillary are as arrogant as Obama. Obama is behind in the latest Rueters poll per Drudge this morning so if Hillary is to make the case for her nomination that is even more fuel for the fire.

If you liked Hillary then McCain’s positions should appeal to you not Obama’s. The Clinton’s haven’t given Obama a ringing endorsement yet.

The wold card is if the annointed one picks Hillary as VP. That could be interesting.

[quote]hedo wrote:
I stand by my opinion that Hillary will make a run for the nomination at the convention.

Arrogance knows no bondaries and Bill and Hillary are as arrogant as Obama. Obama is behind in the latest Rueters poll per Drudge this morning so if Hillary is to make the case for her nomination that is even more fuel for the fire.

If you liked Hillary then McCain’s positions should appeal to you not Obama’s. The Clinton’s haven’t given Obama a ringing endorsement yet.

The wold card is if the annointed one picks Hillary as VP. That could be interesting.[/quote]

I cannot see him running with Hillary.

I also doubt she will make a push at the convention. If she fails she will be vilified by the far left (even more so).

Right now she is thinking McCain on 08 and Hillary in 12. Quite possible with McCain now tied and even ahead in polling.

Obama has totally squandered his lead and momentum. He has proven he is as shallow as we thought.

She must have her eyes on 2012.

I think Bill and Hillary are the kiss of death, I think they represent what Obama is vowing to change.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think Bill and Hillary are the kiss of death, I think they represent what Obama is vowing to change.[/quote]

Which is?

I think you are overestimating anyones importance.

The vast majority of liberal voters vote the way they do because republicans are bad, man.

[quote]tedro wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think Bill and Hillary are the kiss of death, I think they represent what Obama is vowing to change.

Which is?[/quote]

Like the politics that Clintons practice

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I think you are overestimating anyones importance.

The vast majority of liberal voters vote the way they do because republicans are bad, man.[/quote]

As do the vast numbers of Republican vote because the Evil Dems, I hope that is what is going to change, the two polar halves, No one votes the way they think would be best, they vote the way their party tells them

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I think you are overestimating anyones importance.

The vast majority of liberal voters vote the way they do because republicans are bad, man.

As do the vast numbers of Republican vote because the Evil Dems, I hope that is what is going to change, the two polar halves, No one votes the way they think would be best, they vote the way their party tells them[/quote]

I’ll agree with that, but I would say a lot higher % of the liberal vote uses that reason then the conservative.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
I think you are overestimating anyones importance.

The vast majority of liberal voters vote the way they do because republicans are bad, man.

pittbulll wrote:

As do the vast numbers of Republican vote because the Evil Dems, I hope that is what is going to change, the two polar halves, No one votes the way they think would be best, they vote the way their party tells them[/quote]

I have never chosen a political party because I don’t like group think.

If a Republican does stupid shit, then the other Republicans should call him out. Same for the Democrats.

Let’s say Al Gore was elected 8 years ago, and did exactly everything Bush did. The Democrats would have been praising how he had pushed the country to the left, and the Republicans would have been complaining about all the big liberal expansions of government.

What’s good for the party now trumps what’s good for the country. And this will not change until we demand it.

On to the subject at hand, Hilary is not going to help Obama one bit right now. If she was running for Vice President, that might have locked up the nomination.

Right now Clinton’s supporters are complaining that she was not chosen as Obama’s Vice Presidential nominee.

Not Clinton herself, but her supporters. Does anyone here actually believe that she did not orchestrate those complaints?

I believe she is speaking at their convention, and I can see her trying to make a speech where it makes her look good, but does not benefit Obama, or even subtly makes him look bad.

She just needs to do it without it looking like that is what she is doing.

I believe Bill could easily write that type of speech for her.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
I think you are overestimating anyones importance.

The vast majority of liberal voters vote the way they do because republicans are bad, man.

As do the vast numbers of Republican vote because the Evil Dems, I hope that is what is going to change, the two polar halves, No one votes the way they think would be best, they vote the way their party tells them

I’ll agree with that, but I would say a lot higher % of the liberal vote uses that reason then the conservative.[/quote]

Nah, there seems to be about 30-40% on both sides who call the other side “evil.” If you want an example of right-thinking people think the other side is “evil” just look at a lot of the posts on this board. “He’s everything we’ve been fighting since WWII!!11!!” “He’s our enemy!!1!” Its sad to say but there is way too high a percentage of extremists on both sides. If you think the percentage is higher on one side or the other, just do some traveling (normally from city–>rural areas).

It’d be nice if we could stop demonizing each other, but I doubt it’ll happen.

ETA just check out Tiribulus’ posts in the “obama’s brother” thread.


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