1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”
What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
Really? This is complete news to me. As you know, it is somewhat of a common misconception then that hell is quite a painful place. So, are you saying it’s more like a purgatory?
[/quote]
I have personally not found any evidence of a purgatory in the Bible. “Hell” is just the grave. plain and simple. when you die, no matter what you did, you go to the grave, just like Adam and Eve did.
Romans 6:23
“For the wages sin pays is death.”
Once you die, that is complete payment for the sin that you inherited.[/quote]
Well instead of saying you have not found evidence in the Bible of purgatory, go to the folks that have been spreading this word for over 1900 years and that do say there is purgatory and ask them to show you. The proof is there, the Catholic Church has come to terms that some people will not listen (at least outside of the Church) unless it comes from the Bible and elaborated on in the past.
What I think most people misunderstand and cannot grasp is that the first Catholic Bishops wrote the New Testament. It was determined to be divinely written. However, when this was established we did not know everything about our religion. Through the years we have learned more and more about our religion and thus writing our doctrine on Catholic wisdom and Biblical knowledge. So the Church created the Bible it also created other doctrine, so why would we not listen to the other Doctrine if Jesus tells us to listen to the doctrine of the Church. All doctrine is, is what the Apostles have passed down onto future generations about the religion and how it should be done.[/quote]
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. Doctrines can be used as political power and Jesus never wanted Political Power. Look at the Doctrine of Endulgences does the Catholic Church still believe that? Well the Popes of that time period set it as Doctrine, and if you do not follow that then you are a Heretic by your own rules. God gave us a brain to think about these things. He also gave us a guide in the Bible. Most Protestants follow the New Testament, and as I see the New Testament is the same in both the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible. The differences are in the Old Testament which was before Jesus. I am not saying we should not look at the Old Testament or follow its teachings, but we are more alike than you are giving credit. The Protestants are your friends, and if someone is telling you that you will go to hell because you are Catholic, then they are wrong. Look at the Apostles Creed. That is what we base our hopes, and faith in. That is no different from being Catholic or Protestant. We are splitting hairs on all the other stuff. The Apostles Creed is the definition of a Christian.
The catholic chruch includes both Catholic and Protestant.
May I ask what the Apostle’s Creed?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf
However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apolos for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written.”
What is contained in the Bible is the final word. If something is written that disagrees with it, you must go to the Bible for the Authority on the answer.
[/quote]
Here: SCRIPTURE ALONE ("SOLA SCRIPTURA") - Scripture Catholic
I think you all are missing the point. All you are reading in your bible is an interpretation. Many different bibles have different interpretations. Different scholars interpret each book of the bible differently.
The original languages are long since changed and words mean different things.
Jist of the bible: don’t be an a-hole to anyone even if they are an a-hole to you. If you don’t know what that means, then you are an a-hole.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
May I ask what the Apostle’s Creed?[/quote]
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.
[quote]wher0001 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf
However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]
I agree that some Christians have a tendency to be an a-hole. I want to slap them over the head. Jesus did not come so that Christians can be a-holes. He came so that we all could have life and have life abundantly.
Jesus did not come to say no, but to welcome all. Jesus’ gift is free and that gift is eternal life. If T-Muscle was to give away 100 tubs of Anaconda what would the response be? I beleive Eternal Life is more precious than Anaconda, but the response to Eternal life is lack luster in the Developed World. I have been to third world countries where people line up just to know who Jesus is. We wash feet and give out $2 pair of shoes and that is a prized possession to these people. Anaconda costs more than $2. We then tell them about Jesus and what he did for them, and they want to give back their shoes and instead receive Jesus. Even though the shoes are a priceless possession they want Jesus instead. We give them Jesus for the spiritual and the shoes for the physical.
[quote]wher0001 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf
However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]
2 commands:
Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.
Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.
1 John 5:3
For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.
Even if the doctrine contradicts what we know Jesus to have told us, and what the Bible tells us? To my knowledge that is heresy. Am I wrong?
I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.
This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
Really? This is complete news to me. As you know, it is somewhat of a common misconception then that hell is quite a painful place. So, are you saying it’s more like a purgatory?
[/quote]
Purgatory is painful since you are being purified by the fire.[/quote]
Not according to Aquinas. [/quote]
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Purgatory (Appendix II) I beg to differ:
Reply to Objection 1. The fire of Purgatory is eternal in its substance, but temporary in its cleansing effect.
Aquinas even admits that the fires of Purgatory (even though there is only fire unlike the other punishments that await in Hell) are the same as Hell and it may be in the same area or in the same place as Hell however we are not there for torment but for the fire to cleanse and consume our sins before ascending into Heaven.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]wher0001 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf
However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]
2 commands:
Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.
Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.
1 John 5:3
For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[/quote]
And IMO, the ten commandments boil down to don’t be an a-hole. To understand any one religion, we must understand them all. I have studied many religions, including but not limited to: Buddism, Catholicism (confirmed), Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim(Moslem), The Watchtower People…they all say the same thing. DON’T BE AN A-HOLE!
In response, some say if you do act like an a-hole Karma will get you, but in ours (Christian) is says that you will die and go to hell. I still have never seen anything in any ORIGINAL translation of the bible about Purgatory, however I could care less. If God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost have a problem with me due to the fact that I DO believe in them and simply obey the ten Commandments and could care less about all of the mumbo-jumbo associated with the Catholic Tradition, then I guess I will find out a little too late. Oh freakin’ well.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not saying that the Bible is to be treated Sola Scriptura, but what I am saying is that the Bible is a guide to keep us on the path. If any new doctrine is not based in scripture and even contradicts scripture then that new doctrine is heresy. The early church threw out countless books written because they did not follow the teachings of the apostles which those teachings we have in the scriptures. Am I wrong?
[quote]wher0001 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]wher0001 wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ckallander wrote:
Up the punks![/quote]
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
He is correct as far as the scholars are concerned.
http://www.harvestherald.com/pdf/eternal_torment_not_scriptural.pdf
However, it does say that we will be judged by our actions and that is the point of being good to others. It also doesn’t help to not be an a-hole!
[/quote]
2 commands:
Love God and love your neighbor - See John 13:34,35.
Now, to be pleasing to God, you need to do what His will is.
1 John 5:3
For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.
[/quote]
And IMO, the ten commandments boil down to don’t be an a-hole. To understand any one religion, we must understand them all. I have studied many religions, including but not limited to: Buddism, Catholicism (confirmed), Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim(Moslem), The Watchtower People…they all say the same thing. DON’T BE AN A-HOLE!
In response, some say if you do act like an a-hole Karma will get you, but in ours (Christian) is says that you will die and go to hell. I still have never seen anything in any ORIGINAL translation of the bible about Purgatory, however I could care less. If God/Jesus/The Holy Ghost have a problem with me due to the fact that I DO believe in them and simply obey the ten Commandments and could care less about all of the mumbo-jumbo associated with the Catholic Tradition, then I guess I will find out a little too late. Oh freakin’ well.
[/quote]
That is a personal opinion I guess. I feel the need to point out that, although the Ten commandments are important, they are no longer the ‘LAW’ that we are under. We are under Christ’s Law, which is found in the Greek Scriptures, or the New Testament.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not saying that the Bible is to be treated Sola Scriptura, but what I am saying is that the Bible is a guide to keep us on the path. If any new doctrine is not based in scripture and even contradicts scripture then that new doctrine is heresy. The early church threw out countless books written because they did not follow the teachings of the apostles which those teachings we have in the scriptures. Am I wrong?[/quote]
Absolutely correct.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not trying to be an a-hole just trying to understand.[/quote]
Of course! 
Remember, some what Jesus “told us” was also revealed after his ascension. Both teachings and the meaning of those teachings were conveyed via the Holy Spirit. That is one of the last things Christ said - that they would be visited by the Holy Spirit and taught about how to go forward. Well, they went forward and continued to build the Church; that Church still exists and is still being “inspired,” as Saint Thomas Aquinas, among many others, were “inspired” to write theology that establishes a great deal of Doctrine.
Much of what Christ said and did - we are told in many places - was not written down.
You cannot escape interpreting Scripture in light of certain knowledge that has been passed down. You cannot just purely focus on Scripture. You are bringing “tradition” to your reading whether you know it or not.
Aquinas would (and I believe did, but I’d have to poke around to get references) say: Truth is one. Therefore, Doctrine and Scripture must be consistent. That, however, does not mean they’re identical. One might even say that each interpret the other.
[quote]I can understand what you are saying about the apostolic succession, but if the new pope who succeeded the previous pope never knew the previous pope then how does that work? How can there be a line if the person was not trained by that person? If this is true would not Pope Benedict be able to heal the masses? There are countless stories of the first apostles healing many people, but the most resent Popes do not have that ability.
This is very simplified and does not involve the supernatural of God, but are you saying that President Obama succeeded President Washington, and Obama has all the knowledge of Washington? [/quote]
To be honest, that’s a rather mechanistic and worldly understanding of Apostolic Succession: it is not a matter of knowledge per se; the Holy Sacrament of Priesthood is a mystical participation in a Communion that transects time and space. At the moment of the celebration of the Blessed Sacrament, there is no division between heaven and earth - and between Christ breaking the bread at the Holy Eucharist and the Priest before us doing the same, in the very same moment.
There is so much mysticism in the Catholic Church and it’s so beautiful - and felt to be so true - that it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult for non-Catholics to understand it.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
If doctrine is not based on the Bible, which was written by the apostles, then the Catholic Church is not listening to the Apostles. [/quote]
May I try to explain how Catholics see things so we can have a basis for discussion?
The Church already existed at the time of Christ’s Death, Resurrection, and Ascension.
The Church were the Apostles, their followers, and their practices and beliefs.
The Scriptures were written down to record and codify what they were already doing and teaching - again, the Church.
Finally, we believe those Apostles are still among us in an unbroken line; and that Divine Truth continues to be revealed to us, albeit very slowly. This is, in part, what we mean by the “mystical body Christ,” including the Communion of Saints, etc.
And, nb: if the Scriptures were intended to be treated Sola Scriptura, then somewhere in the text, someone would have written: this is the law and the only law.
[/quote]
I am not saying that the Bible is to be treated Sola Scriptura, but what I am saying is that the Bible is a guide to keep us on the path. If any new doctrine is not based in scripture and even contradicts scripture then that new doctrine is heresy. The early church threw out countless books written because they did not follow the teachings of the apostles which those teachings we have in the scriptures. Am I wrong?[/quote]
Yes, Scripture is extremely important - I think maybe part of why this discussion always gets bogged down is that Catholics (me included in this) often sound like Scripture isn’t important. And to be honest, most Catholics (myself included) are way too ignorant of Scripture.
(So, it’s this: not either/or - BUT: both/and. Almost all Catholic teachings can be summed up this way.)
So, Scripture is not the only “guide.” Doctrine - which is based upon Reason/Theology, as well as informed by Scripture - is also a guide.
And Heresy is determined in many ways - not only by looking at Scripture.
Does that make sense?
How can this be? How can Jesus be God’s SON and be God at the same time?
[quote]
How, then, did those Christians, that lived in the first sixty-five years after Christ ascended, know what they had to do to save their souls? They knew it precisely in the same way that you know it, my dear Catholic friends. You know it from the teachings of the Church of God and so did the primitive Christians know it. [/quote]
The scrolls that later became the books were in circulation. They didn’t have to see a cover. The books were all there and were being written by the apostles, many in the form of letters, directly to the congregations.