T Nation

The Catholic Thread


#362

As pointed out by everyone else in here you weren’t really after a discussion. You said your theory and then immediately wanted everyone to prove you wrong. Much like with your religion the burden of proof is not on me to prove something is real no one has ever seen.*

*. In B4 but I see God everyday!


#364

What specifically are you referencing from the Catechism?


#365

Refusing to acknowledge?

“With shame and repentance, we acknowledge as an ecclesial community that we were not where we should have been, that we did not act in a timely manner, realizing the magnitude and the gravity of the damage done to so many lives,” he writes.

“We showed no care for the little ones; we abandoned them.”

Just one example.


#366

I was referencing the belief that the Pope is the vicar (or representative) of Christ on earth.

From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
“I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”

Paragraph 4. Christ’s Faithful - Hierarchy, Laity, Consecrated Life

882 The Pope , Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

According to USA Today as of Aug. 28, 2018,

" A report released this weekend by a former Vatican ambassador to the United States charges that Pope Francis knew about sexual abuse by former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, removed a suspension placed on him by Pope Benedict, and proceeded to make the known abuser one of his most trusted advisors. Pope Francis ‘knew from at least June 23, 2013 that McCarrick was a serial predator, [but] he covered for him to the bitter end,’ wrote Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, nuncio to Washington from 2011-2016, before demanding the pontiff resign.

The pope knew.

That is a damning allegation coming from a very senior church leader. It also corresponds to anecdotal evidence piling up against Francis. Earlier this year, Pope Francis attacked Chilean sex-abuse victims for calumny and defended the bishop who covered up for a pedophile priest. The pope ignored complaints about the enabling bishop before promoting him in 2015."

It looks to me as if too little was done too late, only to prevent the main source of the Vatican’s income from shriveling up in favor of not supporting a corrupt, scandalous, $15 billion institution. Here’s the link:


#367

The Vicar of Christ is the representative. And, not Pope=Christ, as you put it. Very important distinction. The Pope is not God to us.

One man, Vigano, isn’t proof. And, as I demonstrated, the Pope has acknowledged the crimes committed by clerics of the Church.


#368

Oh, and ironically, Vigano blames" the scourge of homosexuality."


#369

But isn’t it too little done too late? I mean, that’s how I feel.


#370

This is inaccurate. He should have blamed it on “the lack of a harsher punishment for pedophilia.”


#371

No, it’s never too late. Still, unfortunately much of these are older cases finally coming to light. In more recent history, as the crimes of priests, and the bishobs who covered for them, came to light, the Church has been trying to figure out better ways to prevent this. In the meantime, unfortunately, some of the past crimes will probably continue to come to light here and there.

As a Catholic I want better and better safeguards as the Church works through this and tries different approaches. Until it is the very model other institutions adopt safe practices from. I would never tell any institution, especially one that isn’t going away, that it’s too little too late. I would demand reform, applaud when good measures are put in place and victims are addressed, and stay more vigilant in the future. Again, the Church, like public schools (or USA gymnastics, yeesh) isn’t going anywhere. As a Catholic, I am happy about that. But I think even non-Catholics should wish us the best in tackling this. I think that’ll be a lot more helpful for young people.than spite.


#372

This is something that I can wholeheartedly agree with. However, I can’t agree with you on this point:

If this was true, why does Pope Francis have no defense to the arguably credible allegations being made against him? Keep in mind these allegations are but two months old. If the Church wants reform, they need to investigate the Pope instead of treating him as if he was God (even though they believe that he is).


#373

What defense can he have to Vigano’s claim? Vigano, the only person to have done so, makes a claim. The Pope denies it.

You mean to say “though they don’t believe that his is?”


#374

Firstly, he could have offered a statement ensuring his full cooperation to sort these allegations that, if true, would put the Pope in prison. My point was that he hasn’t even attempted to refute them. He has just ignored them thus far. Secondly, I meant to say that the Church needs to investigate the Pope instead of treating him like Jesus himself and giving him the benefit of the doubt.


#375

Not sure there is a crime here connected to Vigano’s claims. Pretty sure Vigano is making a claim that the priest in question propositioned seminarians. Vigano is making a charge that Francis knew about the homosexuality. No Pedophilia. Unless I’m misunderstanding. Further, Pope Francis actually removed the priest over a different allegation involving a minor.


#376

Bring back Pope Julius II!


#377

According to the NYT, “ a former top Vatican diplomat claimed in a letter published on Sunday that the pope himself had joined top Vatican officials in covering up the abuses and called for his resignation.”

These are the allegations made. They directly refer to the prevalence of pedophilia within the Catholic Church and Pope Francis’ failure to acknowledge it, overlooking it as he promoted a known pedophile to higher ranks within the Vatican.


#378

Are we not meant to interpret the Cathechism literally? If the Pope is Christ’s representative, we can liken his lack of a response to these allegations to something from the Trump administration: such as Trump stating his own beliefs through the mouth of Sarah Sanders.

Also, if popes are indeed not perfect as you say, is it reasonable to believe that the Apostles perfectly recorded each interaction they had with Christ?


#379

Vigano? Where? His claim is about McCarrick (the priest) and seminarians with regards to Francis.


#380

That is the literal interpretation. Represent. Not is Christ.


#381

And they specifically address that Pope Francis should resign because he allegedly knowingly promoted McCarrick for 5 years before ultimately letting him go.


#382

But isn’t representation basically impersonation? Our senators represent the states in the Senate. They = states.