T Nation

The Catholic Thread


#201

I’m not sure I understand the question. Are you saying what causes the first heartbeat?


#202

I highly doubt that, especially if by most you mean greater than 50%.

Believing saying words over a piece of food changes it into the body of a dead person is a very quirky belief in my world, but that’s a matter of opinion.


#203

Bro… look at the estimated number of Catholics and Orthodox alone… more than 50%.

It’s not that peculiar of a quirk in that it’s not peculiar to Catholics. It was a pretty universal belief for 1500 years.


#204

Just wikipedia stuff-
Estimated 2.19 billion Christians worldwide (as of 2010). Of those, 900 million are Protestant (41%). Given that “real presence” is believed by Catholics, Orthodox, and even by some Protestants (mentioned above)… greater than 50% is a safe assumption.


#205

sure, I see those numbers, but I know a lot of Catholics who do not actually believe in transubstantiation. Maybe I just have higher hopes for the logic of fellow humans, I may be wrong.


#206

But I’m happy and content and the deaf, dumb, and unknowing universe won’t punish me upon my death if I’m wrong. Thank you for the hope, but I really am very satisfied.


#207

You’re simply trying to bait me while always being able to refute me, nice try. I simply provided a link to show evidence of the Eucharist becoming the literal Body and Blood of Christ. Yet you never actually refuted the evidence, you attacked the source. The two materials are thirteen-hundred years apart yet they are both AB positive, heart tissue under extreme stress, same genetic code and yet you still doubt me. Well if you don’t like my examples, simply search the internet for “Eucharistic miracles” and look for yourself.

Your choice of language is telling too because you called ChurchMilitant.com a "fringe group." If you want to be original, try to do something other than copy a page/ideas; or at least when you do copy someone else, cite the source.


#208

It has 195K facebook followers in a religion with 16% of the world’s population. Seems pretty fringe to me, but I can concede, I only gave it a brief glance and am aware of previous discussions where you used fringe sources to make your point.

Yes, from a VERY biased website, and the best you could do was a story from a bishop. Sorry, that is not what I call evidence. I think we’re at the agree to disagree territory on what literally being flesh is.

I found more stories from hundreds of years ago. I want to emphasize, we are talking about something VERY simple here. This should be very easy to prove without going to fringe websites and hearing old folk tales.

I didn’t copy and paste anything, but it’s hard to be original on this topic, these discussion have been had for a long time.

Nobody to cite, and not sure where this line of thought is coming from.


#209

Back in the day (one thousand years ago up to one hundred years ago in some rural communities) if you were a poor peasant you had to perform a mental triage on you offspring because your resources were scarce - the comely daughter will marry the inkeeper’s son, the strong, resourceful son will inherit the farm, while the smart son who’s a physical weakling…wait, what are you gonna do with him since you cannot afford his education?

Well, there’s an organization that will take him, educate him, train him to be a priest (and probably a schoolteacher) and ensure him a relatively comfortable life - much more comfortable than yours - in exchange for not procreating. But that’s not a big deal because you’ll get grandchildren from other offspring. And you also know, although it’s never spoken about in the village that a…err…suitable candidate can be found among certain women to be the priest’s housekeeper and provide him with…er…services…should he be so inclined.

That’s why so many scientists - well, naturalists - in the pre-industrial revolution period were catholic priests, with the same background, usually sons of poor farmers who had no other option to pursue some form of education.

Now when the Catholic world has become much more socially mobile compared to previous periods, the advantages of priesthood have diminished greatly.

“You can join but the downside is you won’t be allowed to have intercourse with a woman”

“Abstaining from sexual intercourse with a woman, and an adult one at that? I have absolutely no problem with that”

To speak the language of statistic, how does your through-the-door population looks like after applying this criterion?


#210

I’m talking about the specific word “fringe;” MSN, Huffington Post and other media empires did some hit pieces on Church Militant back in February of this year. Want to guess the noun they used? Fringe. But again you try to insult me rather than actually discuss the topic and defend your position. As a quick piece of advice, as a virtue or good habit to have; you should first seek to understand then to be understood.

Of course the site is biased, they support the beliefs of the Catholic Church, otherwise why would I cite them as a source? Do you really think a protestant church will refute itself and defend the Catholic Church?!

The Catholic Church and her branches are the ONLY churches that not only believe what the Church has taught from the time of Christ but they also have apostolic succession. This is something that Protestant Churches (they protest a teaching/s of the Catholic Church) all lack; in other words they might believe they are eating a symbol but their preachers have zero succession. Plus the Catholic Church believes Christ when He said; “This is My Body,” then Protestants doubt the Son of GOD.

Plus you moved the goal posts because “you don’t understand/believe what they prove.” (Not a literal quote from you by the way).

You found these stories and what did they say? Lets limit your sources to writings from the time of Christ (0 AC After Christ) to say 1400 AC, please. See above as to your fringe sites.

They have had indeed been had, yet here you are trying to prove the improvable, yet you still don’t cite a source. Yet when I do, you whine that the source is biased.

If you want to know where I learned something, I always provide a source. However if you don’t like my source you attack said source. Notice the pattern here?

Drew1411, you came onto my thread (I commend you for trying by the way!!) to question and understand my beliefs. Yet when shown the evidence that I use to confirm what my beliefs are, you attack those sources. I will defend my understandings/beliefs in other areas the same way. Show me I am wrong, show me with evidence not an opinion and my beliefs change. I love being wrong because I then grow as a person.

edit - still haven’t nailed the quote function quite yet ; )


#211

Your story time is enjoyable! You still didn’t prove to me the current problems in the worldwide Catholic Church is NOT a homosexual one. Back in the early two-thousands it was a homosexual pedophilia problem and now it’s a homosexual hebephilia problem. Notice the homosexual problem? Sure there was the rare cases of heterosexual problems but those were vastly outnumbered by homosexual attacks.


#212

Today’s Vortex fits perfectly -

Wait, it’s a fringe group!!!


#213

Edited for misunderstanding


#214

That’s news to me, I don’t read those websites. Fringe isn’t exactly an uncommon word, but good to see my 10-second assessment wasn’t completely off base.

That was literally what I was doing. I asked you what the difference between a transformed piece of bread would be and a normal piece of bread. You answered with a story from a Bishop, a fringe website, and folk tales. You never answered the question.

You want me to tell you stories of a piece of bread tasting like bread? I’ve taken communion, it didn’t taste like I was eating protein. #evidence

I think you have this backwards. I’m stating the null hypothesis, that nothing has happened. You are stating something is happening, and a pretty significant thing at that. You believe a piece of bread is actually human flesh, and the evidence you give for that belief is stories. Like I said before, we are in agree to disagree territory on what evidence is.

The piece of bread you eat every Sunday has the same texture, taste, and chemical makeup of a piece of bread that has not had specific words said above it. A piece of human flesh has different texture, taste, and chemical makeup. You previously mentioned human heart tissue, human heart tissue would not taste, feel or look anything like the piece of bread.


#215

I simply pointed out that you used the exact same noun to describe the exact same website which that was described by major news companies. All the while Church Militant is the most commented on Catholic website of the vast internet. So “fringe” doesn’t really fit, or does it?

I gave you examples and that isn’t answering your question? OK, here you have it from a lay Catholic; the bread literally becomes the Flesh of Christ after it is blessed by a priest. Why you ask? Because the Author of the universe said. I provided “stories” and those aren’t good enough proof. I told you to search for “Eucharistic miracles” and you have a hard time believing in a loving Creator so you didn’t heed my advice.

A blessed piece of bread was dropped on the ground and the Host was placed in Holy Water to dissolve. After three years the Water was looked at and there was a “blood red substance on the Bread.” A sample was taken and was sent off to be analyzed. The tissue was found to be the exact same tissue as the Shroud of Turin yet the two samples are separated by nearly two thousand years of time and thousands of miles in distance.

Your “proof” is, you don’t believe. So you want GOD to take away free will so that you will believe?

Because something has the appearance of bread and wine, that limits what the substance is?

Nope, I know where you are coming from Drew1411. I don’t simply believe it, I know it. GOD cannot be limited by the world in which he created, that would be the epitome of dumb. Don’t forget, you came into this thread, questioned me and you do not like my responses (by the way, I am totally fine with that).

Oh I know where you are coming from and I totally understand the thinking. At one point in my life, I was there too. Nothing has happened according to you. Please take some time to look up Eucharistic miracles. They happened long ago and they still happen today. Never has science been able to explain the why.

If you want to disagree with me, that is your prerogative. Just do not expect me to stop defending my King and my GOD.


#216

If anyone hasn’t figured it out yet, kneedragger is fairly ignorant about Catholicism. No Catholic would want him as a defender of the faith. It’s embarrassing. Nothing he stated about the Shroud of Turin is true. I honestly think he must be a troll or mentally ill.


#217

He has taken a couple pretty good knocks.

If I really wanted to hear from an authority on the state of Catholicism there is a rectory about 100 ft. from my door.


#218

No, stories are not a good indicator of proof and I do not consider them evidence. Reading about “miracles” that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago does not make them more believable.

Not necessarily just appearance, but there is nothing indicating that it is not just bread and wine. Null hypothesis, nothing has happened, the bread and wine are the exact same as they were before words were said over them.

Not just according to me, by any means of measuring (taste, texture, smell, appearance, chemical properties…etc.). I’m saying that using anything we can think of to possibly measure what a substance is, the measurement would show nothing happened.

I feel like we’re starting to go in circles so I’ll let this be my last comment to you on this topic, I think the point has been made.


#219

All of your taste, texture, etc., is literally subjective. Yet I provided an example of when a dropped Eucharist that is placed in Holy Water to dissolve and what is found? Instead of a mold or fungus or some other growth, cardiac muscle under extreme duress of the exact same genetic makeup is found separated by thirteen hundred years of time. Instead of proving this wrong, you simply doubt the claim.

What would prove the Eucharist becomes real Flesh and Blood of Christ, to you? I am not saying I can provide this specific evidence, but I am just curious.


#220

Get some professional help.