The Case Against Israel's Enemies

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]Odogg wrote:
Did Palestinians live on that land yes or no? I get the whole “You don’t know the REAL story” argument but it doesn’t matter what the REAL story is if no one knows or believes it. That’s like saying, we GAVE the Indians fresh blankets (FACT) and they were happy for it! Oh we compensated some people for their land, they have a nice big pad in Gaza right now, its all good. Lol. I mean, to build a state in a sea of Arab countries and not think “We might run into some issues with this whole thing…” is being either incredibly naive or arrogant. [/quote]

  1. Define “palestinians” (don’t forget though that vast majority of the current residents of “Palestine” are displaced Jordanians, Syrians etc who have absolutely no ties to any place in Israel and that 20% or so of Israeli population are Muslim Arabs).

  2. I would actually agree - they might’ve underestimated the level of hatred for the Jews, which seems to be perpetual and irrational in the Muslim world - but who’s to blame ? In european France with the influx of Arab Muslims from the Middle East there is some anti-Jewish sentiment fueled by those kind folks - but again - who’s to blame?
    As for the exact location of where Israel was established after WWII - this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

22

[quote]Odogg wrote:
Did Palestinians live on that land yes or no? … . . . [/quote]

Depends on when you are talking about, I suppose. East Jerusalem was always (as in for a thousand years) a mixed community, and Israel would be happy for it to be remain so, but middle of 20th century (with help from German officers) Jordan invaded and killed and expelled the Jewish residents – demanding it be “Judenfre” ---- a demand the “palestianians” keep today.

Most of Israel was empty, barren, land for years. One of the best (for English speakers) descriptions of Israel in the 1800s was by Mark Twain in “Innocents Abroad” — a travelouge where he thoroughly described Israel and the towns now at issue as largely empty, but for the occasional Haredi Jewish family and staltwort Orthodox Christian priests and monks who maintained the churches.

Indeed, most of the arabs that are now called “palestinians” illegaly immigrated from Syria and Jordan (where they were treated as second-class citizens) to what-is-now-Israel in the late 1800s to come work at settlements founded by returning Jewish groups — because the Jewish people treated them like full citizens and a prosperous economy was being created where they could get a chance at a normal life.

This whole idea of Jewish invaders forcing arabs off land is just nonsense.

[quote]

I mean, to build a state in a sea of Arab countries and not think “We might run into some issues with this whole thing…” is being either incredibly naive or arrogant. [/quote]

Naive, I think.

When Israel was founded the anti-Jewish school of Islamic thought was not nearly as pronounced as it is today — it existed, mind you, but was subdued or theoretical. The propagandists of Nazi Germany saw this seed of anti-semitism, however, and really brought it into its own starting in the late 1930s.

23

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever.

24

Utopian and idealistic settlements were popular in the first decades of (edit:) 20th century. Idealistic finns built some settlements in south america.

25

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

Cool thanks for the info.

26

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

I think what other people consider to be holy is not really up to you to decide.

27

[quote]Odogg wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Some people are willing to die to protect what they have worked for.

If I wanted to make you my slave for 25 hours a week, for the next 20 years, and I was willing to be extremely violent about it, would you fight? What if I was a kind master and just made you work in my fields for those 25 hours?

I invested 25 hours a week, for the last 20 years, in mortgage payments on my home. And if somebody takes that, I have worked all those years for nothing. If it was my fault, then I might be able to stomach the loss. Otherwise…
[/quote]

Uhh, so the palestinian farmers and others who farmed the land Israel took after WWII don’t count? I just don’t understand why the indigenous people of that land had to pay the price for white european guilt. Those people are still pissed off and the Arab leaders fan the flames to make it a political issue.

/sarcasm on
Its hard work to pull off that colonial sh*t these days, you know with TV, newspapers, internet and such.
/sarcasm off
[/quote]

Indigenous people? You mean the Muslims that invaded Jewish/Christian lands before and during the Crusades?

28

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

I think what other people consider to be holy is not really up to you to decide.
[/quote]

No, but what he says is the truth, their reason for it being Holy is false.

29

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

Let me get this straight. We(i.e. United States and Western democracies) share equal responsibility for the FIVE unprovoked wars that were launched against Israel, the Iranian hostage crisis, the truck bombing of US Marine barracks in the Lebanon, the East Africa Embassy bombings, the world trade centre truck bombing, 9/11, the London 7/7 attacks, the Bali bombings, the Jakarta bombings, the Madrid subway bombings, the suicide bombings/rockets/rampages in Israel, the Beslan school massacre, the Mumbai attacks and the daily beheadings and torture-murders of ‘Infidels’ because we have been ‘giving an opinion about this’?

Let me try to understand your next point. If a hostile enemy wants to invade your country with the stated purpose of exterminating your ethnic group, you should hand your country over to them and somehow resettle your entire population somewhere else so nobody gets hurt?

Next![/quote]

The reason why there is a war right now is because the United Nations attempted to hand over what’s now Israel to two different ethnic groups, Israel immediately claimed independence, and the surrounding countries all attacked at once. The United Nations help Jews from all over the world travel back to Israel and they (Israeli) pushed the Palestines, who’d been living there for 500 years, out.

So in other words, if there had been more of a fair settlement of the land which was enforced, perhaps there wouldn’t be as much of a problem over there. Now, the idea wasn’t for Israel to take over, from what I understand, but the fact is that we’ve aided Israel in their efforts to lay complete claim to that land.

On the other side, Jews have been hated and displaced for thousands of years and many wish to see them have a place to call home. What they’re doing right now blatantly violates the human rights agreement of the United Nations, though.

And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.

30

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
You know what the real problem with this issue is? There is un-excusable slaughter of humanity happening as a result of every side giving an opinion about this, and for this reason it’s nearly impossible to find un-biased information about it.

Another problem is, people have an idea of ownership over the land and they think that their right to the land is more important than someone else’s life. I don’t understand that. If someone wanted to take my land, to the point of bloodshed, I would move or join them. It’s simply not worth it. [/quote]

It has nothing to do with “land,” that’s B.S. ginned up to give some sort of credibility to people who are not familiar with the facts.

There is a certain strain of Islam that teaches it is OK to kill Jewish people.

It doesn’t matter where we live or exist.[/quote]

Well the fact is that Israel is occupying their enemy’s territory, not the other way around, and not being too nice about it either. If you ever want hatred on either side to end, one side is going to have to stop violating the rights of the other, or someone is going to have to step in and equally prevent the violation on either side.

Edit: My occupying, I’m not talking about the possession of Israel, but the fact that they have large operations outside the boarders where their enemies are staying.

31

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Odogg wrote:
Uhh, so the palestinian farmers and others who farmed the land Israel took after WWII don’t count? I just don’t understand why the indigenous people of that land had to pay the price for white european guilt. Those people are still pissed off and the Arab leaders fan the flames to make it a political issue.

/sarcasm on
Its hard work to pull off that colonial sh*t these days, you know with TV, newspapers, internet and such.
/sarcasm off
[/quote]

Indigenous people? You mean the Muslims that invaded Jewish/Christian lands before and during the Crusades?[/quote]

+1. But clearly Odogg is only looking at it from a racial point of view. Why he thinks it is ok to do so is beyond me.

One group kills another group…but they are the same colour! Aha no problem. It doesn’t matter that they had completely different beliefs and were from different areas. Fuck that! They were the same ethnicity so no big deal.

32

[quote]Oleena wrote:
And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

Bullshit. If I tried to lay claim to your home using violence you wouldn’t just give it to me. You would call the police and they would use violence against my violence. There is no fucking chance you would just leave and give me your house.

So instead of being violent yourself you just subcontract it out to others.

33

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

Bullshit. If I tried to lay claim to your home using violence you wouldn’t just give it to me. You would call the police and they would use violence against my violence. There is no fucking chance you would just leave and give me your house.

So instead of being violent yourself you just subcontract it out to others.[/quote]

I like how you act like what you would do is what I would do.

Fact: I have been in a situation where I was the only one paying rent on a place (and weirdly, it was one of the nicest houses I’ve lived in). The situation in this place was terrible and one of the room mates made it a very violent, dangerous place. I did not call the cops. I left.

I’ve been pushed out of more living situations than probably most of the people commenting on this, due to either money, violence, or unsuitable conditions. I don’t waist my life energy trying to fight for a home. You may not understand this, but if I had fought any of it, I wouldn’t be as far in life as I am today.

I say with complete honesty that if my family’s safety was threatened, I would leave. Also, history has favored the people who left first.

Not everyone considers where they live a part of themselves.

34

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
And yes, I would move an entire population if someone was trying to lay claim to an area. Do you really think that blood shed, starvation, and your life are less important than the land? That’s stupid, IMO. Land-rights should never be more important than someone’s life. I would not tell my child to fight for their land; they are much more important than a plot of soil with history.[/quote]

Bullshit. If I tried to lay claim to your home using violence you wouldn’t just give it to me. You would call the police and they would use violence against my violence. There is no fucking chance you would just leave and give me your house.

So instead of being violent yourself you just subcontract it out to others.[/quote]

I like how you act like what you would do is what I would do.

Fact: I have been in a situation where I was the only one paying rent on a place (and weirdly, it was one of the nicest houses I’ve lived in). The situation in this place was terrible and one of the room mates made it a very violent, dangerous place. I did not call the cops. I left.

I say with complete honesty that if my family’s safety was threatened, I would leave. Also, history has favored the people who left first.

Not everyone considers where they live a part of themselves. [/quote]

Because you rent. What if 20 years of your life was tied up in your land? Would you still feel the same way? I doubt it. Would you let me follow you around and take 40-60% of your income each year for the next 20 years? I highly fucking doubt it.

37

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Nobody cares what goes on out there, be it in Africa or Asia. Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power, making people think that the sandbox of Israel encompasses more humanity and land than Europe combined. The jews have a large voice and they voice it a lot. Their actions affect the lives of europeans and americans. The actions of the sudanese etc. have no significance. I don’t see any evidence of Israel caring for those tragedies. It’s just diversion. Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition, like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving.
[/quote]

“Nobody cares what goes on out there”

  • Exactly. Whislt the Arab colonialists in the Sudan run the slave trade and send out the Janjaweed for regular genocidal rampages against the indigenous black population, ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ whine about some suicide bomber’s neighbors who got killed in Israel.

“Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power”

  • Arabs in Israel have ALL the same rights as Jews including parliamentary representation. They even have Arab supreme court judges. If Jews exercise more influence it’s due to merit not some conspriracy.

“Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition”

  • Is that from Mein Kampf or the Protocols of Zion? Weakening the whites? You sad man.

“like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving”

  • South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ by the same left-wing political perverts who paint Israel as ‘evil’ and call it an ‘apartheid state’. South Africa now has the highest murder rate in the world and after the ANC purged the upper echelons of the Police force of the white ‘racists’, the criminal conviction rate is now less than 3%. Also, practices like raping babies as a ‘cure for AIDS’, once supressed by the white ‘racists’ are now back in force. And thanks to the enlightened leadership of ANC ‘freedom fighters’ like Robert Mugabe SA now has its own ‘border protection problems’. Don’t see how this comparison helps your case.

  • Lastly, if this matters, I’m not one of the evil Jews conspiring from Bilderberg to ‘weaken the whites’. I’m 100% white, Christian and can trace my ancestors back more than 10 generations on the paternal side and 7 generations on the maternal. No ‘tainted blood’ here, unlike your source Mr Schickelgruber who did so much good for ‘the whites’ in Europe that by the time he blew his brains out 8 million + Germans had died not to mention the other European ‘whites’ whom he had ‘liberated’ from ‘the Jews’.[/quote]
    I think you misunderstood me a little. I was not talking about whether arabs have rights in Israel (though I’ve read very conflicting accounts of this) but referring to the fact that jews have a lot of power in american media which makes americans care disproportionately much about the problems of Israel and jews. Which does not mean they should not care about the problems of the jews at all, just that it’s disproportional.

38

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Nobody cares what goes on out there, be it in Africa or Asia. Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power, making people think that the sandbox of Israel encompasses more humanity and land than Europe combined. The jews have a large voice and they voice it a lot. Their actions affect the lives of europeans and americans. The actions of the sudanese etc. have no significance. I don’t see any evidence of Israel caring for those tragedies. It’s just diversion. Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition, like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving.
[/quote]

“Nobody cares what goes on out there”

  • Exactly. Whislt the Arab colonialists in the Sudan run the slave trade and send out the Janjaweed for regular genocidal rampages against the indigenous black population, ‘liberals’ and ‘progressives’ whine about some suicide bomber’s neighbors who got killed in Israel.

“Nobody would care what goes on in Israel either if jews did not exercise disproportionate power”

  • Arabs in Israel have ALL the same rights as Jews including parliamentary representation. They even have Arab supreme court judges. If Jews exercise more influence it’s due to merit not some conspriracy.

“Sometimes jews may seem to care about the problems of foreign nations, but it tends to do with weakening the whites (if any) of those nations so that they can take over and destroy their competition”

  • Is that from Mein Kampf or the Protocols of Zion? Weakening the whites? You sad man.

“like when South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ and was actually thriving”

  • South Africa was painted as ‘evil’ by the same left-wing political perverts who paint Israel as ‘evil’ and call it an ‘apartheid state’. South Africa now has the highest murder rate in the world and after the ANC purged the upper echelons of the Police force of the white ‘racists’, the criminal conviction rate is now less than 3%. Also, practices like raping babies as a ‘cure for AIDS’, once supressed by the white ‘racists’ are now back in force. And thanks to the enlightened leadership of ANC ‘freedom fighters’ like Robert Mugabe SA now has its own ‘border protection problems’. Don’t see how this comparison helps your case.

  • Lastly, if this matters, I’m not one of the evil Jews conspiring from Bilderberg to ‘weaken the whites’. I’m 100% white, Christian and can trace my ancestors back more than 10 generations on the paternal side and 7 generations on the maternal. No ‘tainted blood’ here, unlike your source Mr Schickelgruber who did so much good for ‘the whites’ in Europe that by the time he blew his brains out 8 million + Germans had died not to mention the other European ‘whites’ whom he had ‘liberated’ from ‘the Jews’.[/quote]
    According to studies, most jews are opposed to interracial marriage. That is, jews marrying gentiles like arabs and may even see it as a serious crime. However, when whites dislike interracial marriage (See recent thread on Mississippi) they are castigated as dumb and uneducated if not evil.

The media (influenced by guess who) does a lot to advance white/non-white sex and mating, even if it requires distortions and lies. I think that counts as weakening whites and some prominent jewish thinkers are on record saying just that; weakening whites will be good for their domination.

39

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

I think what other people consider to be holy is not really up to you to decide.
[/quote]

No, but what he says is the truth, their reason for it being Holy is false.[/quote]

A lot of people believe that your reason for it being holy is false too. And the Jews’.

40

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:
this is the land that is considered sacred by both Jews and Muslims. Jews are OK with sharing it. Muslims are not.

[/quote]

Actually, there is little in Israel that is considered “sacred” in Islam.

The whole thing about the Al-Asqa mosque (the mosque on the Temple Mount — you know, located of Abraham & Issac almost sacrifice, Solomon’s Temple, the “Second” Temple) etc being the “third holiest site in Islam” is nonsense that was cooked up in 1960s by the PLO.

They claim the Al Asqua is the “distant” mosque where Mohammed flew his magic horse Barrack.

Well, this is a new claim, but anyone with a history book would notice that the Al-Asqua was built AFTER MOHAMMED WAS DEAD – so (ignoring the whole magic horse thing) it’s impossible.

I mean, Jerusalem wasn’t even mentioned a single time in the koran — no connection whatsoever. [/quote]

I think what other people consider to be holy is not really up to you to decide.
[/quote]

No, but what he says is the truth, their reason for it being Holy is false.[/quote]

A lot of people believe that your reason for it being holy is false too. And the Jews’.
[/quote]

You gotta be kidding right? Ever heard of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?

There is a difference between not believing that the land is Holy because you don’t have that faith AND not believing the land is actually Holy to SOMEONE ELSE because their reason for that land being Holy is historically false.

Jesus died on Calvary. Prophet Mo’ didn’t go to Israel.