The Cardio Thread

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:

Concerning your triathon stuff ive got a few questions…

do u carbo load, have u tried it?

[/quote]

Yes, I have an interesting carboload though. I go low carb 1 week and cycle in Maximum Strength HOT-ROX. Going of theory, it will help me utilize fat during the tapering exercises. It will also help me maintain muscle mass incase I “overdeprive” my system. Peak max dose of Maximum Strength HOT-ROX mid-week and then taper back down. So 2-4-6-8-6-4-2. Then:

2 days before the event I do an exaustive exercise. Usually >30 minutes at several interval intensities. The intervals vary between short and fast bursts and always allow my heart rate to drop down into the “fat burning zone” between intervals. This way I am decreasing my glycogen stores through intervals and also giving my body one last education on fat utilization during exercise. I follow up with a full serving of Surge. I will have two more Surge shakes over the next 1-1.5 hours (total of 3). The rest is higher carb. I say higher because I feel incomplete if I eliminate my fats completely and protein intake (with every meal) is a must for me.

Colleges compete at the olympic distance. I race sprint, half-iron, and iron as well. Olympic, however, is more of my forte. I prefer Olympic distance as I feel ironmans aren’t really a “race”. You get a changing room so there is no real “rush”. Look at most Ironmans and there is usually a 15-30 minute split between first and second (even in Kona).

I actually follow a principle similar to what DJ mentions in his One Lift A Day. The whole 3 weeks on 1 week off. I’ll usually alternate my VO2 max tests every month (between cycle and treadmill). I’ll do a 3 week “build” cycle which usually involves a higher percentage of “two a days”. The following week will cut the workout time in half and usually focus on the longer “active recovery’” workouts.

Rowing is the king of distance sports.

However, V02 max might not be all it’s made out to be. Check this out. The gist is that specific adaptation to rowing, rather than V02 max increases attained by means of long, slow distance training, is the key to success. The ability of the body to produce a high amount of power over a certain period of time is the product of a lot more than how well your lungs work. This is not necessarily to say that most rowers should just row short and hard pieces; most rowers could reap significant increases by increasing their max power. Posterior chain strength and circuit training…

http://www.usrowing.org/itemdisplay.asp?id=1134

Excerpts:

I have collected extensive physiological data on rowers over several years and VO2 max has long been the gold standard to represent the upper limit of aerobic capacity. However, I have observed both during 2K ergometer tests and water 2K efforts, that VO2 max has a much lower correlation with rowing performance than the athlete’s ability to sustain an average oxygen consumption, starting at the end of the first minute of exercise until completion, that is the ability to maintain an average oxygen consumption of 95 % or greater of VO2max or the highest VO2 value measured during a simulated 2K maximal effort on a Concept 2 ergometer.

Our studies of rowers over the years have not shown that aerobic capacity benefits from long, medium to light, steady-state rowing of several kilometers at relatively low stroke ratings and blade pressure…We can report conclusively that rowing continuously at low work intensities for 60 - 90 minutes has very little effect on maximal aerobic capacity.

[quote]Ross Hunt wrote:
Rowing is the king of distance sports.

[/quote]

I agree and disagree.

King of distance sports?

Ironman:
2.4 Mile Swim, 112 Mile Bike, 26.2 Mile Run.

Professionals finish that in under 8h 30m

Rowing as King of Strength Endurance?

Possibly.

I am not bashing Rowing. My cousin: Steven Peterson, has taken home two world cups and rowed in Atlanta '96. He’s a beast. But its hard to really debate over the “king” of endurance sports.

Lets be honest all endurance sports, all sports full stop are tough at the top end but rowing the king of endurance sports? I see the stats you posted regarding ironman events but youve missed one event that takes about 3 weeks to complete. Tour de france?

Im not a cyclist but for sheer hell those guys put themselves through it. A massive amount of de-training is needed when a competitive cyclist retires (same for rowers too - i know), but the adaptations made to the body are enormous. Massive vo2max (armstongs was around 82-83.5mg/kg/min, indurains higher…around 85 i think), left ventricular hypertrophy (their hearts simply grow), silly resting heart rates (indurains 28 beats per minute, again armstrongs slightly behind at 32-34).

One thing we havent mentioned is economy. Armstrongs mechanical efficiency is miles better now than what it used to be. He’s just better on a bike. Certian athletes - some marathon runners for example actually decrease slightly in their vo2 levels but their running economy goes up close to an event.

im assuming the same applies for rowing too? anyone fill me in on this one?

Also, regarding intervals on bikes, running, water or whatever, does anyone have any literature regarding training to improve some of the characteristics we’ve talked about?

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
Lets be honest all endurance sports, all sports full stop are tough at the top end but rowing the king of endurance sports? I see the stats you posted regarding ironman events but youve missed one event that takes about 3 weeks to complete. Tour de france?

Im not a cyclist but for sheer hell those guys put themselves through it. A massive amount of de-training is needed when a competitive cyclist retires (same for rowers too - i know), but the adaptations made to the body are enormous. Massive vo2max (armstongs was around 82-83.5mg/kg/min, indurains higher…around 85 i think), left ventricular hypertrophy (their hearts simply grow), silly resting heart rates (indurains 28 beats per minute, again armstrongs slightly behind at 32-34).

One thing we havent mentioned is economy. Armstrongs mechanical efficiency is miles better now than what it used to be. He’s just better on a bike. Certian athletes - some marathon runners for example actually decrease slightly in their vo2 levels but their running economy goes up close to an event.

im assuming the same applies for rowing too? anyone fill me in on this one?

Also, regarding intervals on bikes, running, water or whatever, does anyone have any literature regarding training to improve some of the characteristics we’ve talked about? [/quote]

I was speaking more in terms of a the one time bout. But TDF is a biggie. JB did an article on the road with these guys.

As far as specific literature I am a bit absent on that. I usually go coaches and conversations but never a specific book or reference.

[quote]TriGWU wrote:
I was speaking more in terms of a the one time bout. But TDF is a biggie. JB did an article on the road with these guys.

As far as specific literature I am a bit absent on that. I usually go coaches and conversations but never a specific book or reference. [/quote]

yeah, having said that though 6hrs a day peddling my ass off is still hardcore. What phase of training are you in at present.

Come on people…someone else must chip in?

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
I was speaking more in terms of a the one time bout. But TDF is a biggie. JB did an article on the road with these guys.

As far as specific literature I am a bit absent on that. I usually go coaches and conversations but never a specific book or reference.

yeah, having said that though 6hrs a day peddling my ass off is still hardcore. What phase of training are you in at present.

Come on people…someone else must chip in?
[/quote]

I held a baseline.

I now start to build for my September race. I am spending most of these months experimenting with build cycles.

My next big race is California Half Ironman as there are qualifying spots for Kona. I’d like to take home a spot.

[quote]EMPORIOMICK wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
I was speaking more in terms of a the one time bout. But TDF is a biggie. JB did an article on the road with these guys.

As far as specific literature I am a bit absent on that. I usually go coaches and conversations but never a specific book or reference.

yeah, having said that though 6hrs a day peddling my ass off is still hardcore. What phase of training are you in at present.

Come on people…someone else must chip in?
[/quote]

I reckon the stages the TDF guys spend in the Alps are probably the most hardcore, to see them sprint up the mega-steep inclines for km at a time is mind-boggling, especially when I consider how exhausted I feel climbing very insignificant hills on my own training rides.

However the ironman guys are also insane, i couldn’t imagine trying to run a marathon after 180km on a bike, my legs wouldn’t know what to do!

I also did a fair bit of rowing on the C2 rower about 2 years ago (this was before I knew about T-Nation!), and I must say that this is the cardio exercise that makes me want to puke the most, it just works the entire body, and after doing the sprint distances up to about 2km you just don’t feel quite right for a while afterwards. There have been many occasions where I have finished the workout and just sat for about 5 minutes before I could even think of standing up!

Lately I have been using the rower as my warmup for weights, and with about a minute to go I will put in a big sprint to really get the heart rate going and keep me warm whilst stretching for 10 minutes. I never used to be able to get below 1:30/500m pace but now I can get well into the 1:20’s and hold it for 30-45 seconds, seems like the strength training has been paying off in this regard.

Thread hi-jack- that stuff up there is too hardcore for me. Just a question-

I run a measly 2.5 most everyday. Lately, after a visit the chiropractor I’m getting a side ache in my upper right quadrant, just below my rib cage. First time it happened I couldn’t shake it for the entire run. Went back to the chiro and he said I had a rib out. Did his thing almost instant improvement.

I’m still getting the same ache, same spot at about 1/4 mile and it takes me another 1/4 or so to kick it. Ideas? I know I probably am missing a ton of info, ask away. I don’t run competitively so it’s not a huge deal other than it annoys the heck out of me and saps my motivation.

[quote]911 Girl wrote:
Thread hi-jack- that stuff up there is too hardcore for me. Just a question-

I run a measly 2.5 most everyday. Lately, after a visit the chiropractor I’m getting a side ache in my upper right quadrant, just below my rib cage. First time it happened I couldn’t shake it for the entire run. Went back to the chiro and he said I had a rib out. Did his thing almost instant improvement.

I’m still getting the same ache, same spot at about 1/4 mile and it takes me another 1/4 or so to kick it. Ideas? I know I probably am missing a ton of info, ask away. I don’t run competitively so it’s not a huge deal other than it annoys the heck out of me and saps my motivation.[/quote]

This isn’t the typical “stitch-in-the-side” is it?

The pain is very similar, but I’ve never ever had it this high. For me the “stitch in the side” was always lower ab above the hip haven’t had that one in years. This one is upper just under the ribs. Sometimes when it just gets to be too much I can shake it or at least minimize it by doing some heavy exhales. I’ve been back to the chiro and everything seems to be where it should be.

[quote]911 Girl wrote:
The pain is very similar, but I’ve never ever had it this high. For me the “stitch in the side” was always lower ab above the hip haven’t had that one in years. This one is upper just under the ribs. Sometimes when it just gets to be too much I can shake it or at least minimize it by doing some heavy exhales. I’ve been back to the chiro and everything seems to be where it should be.[/quote]

It could be the same thing that causes the “stitch-in-the-side” in other areas. There is no specific spot. It’s the same thing that would cause any muscular fatigue from endurance work beyond that muscles capacity. It is quite possible that muscle/area is simply not getting enough oxygen.

Also, It could be a stress fracture. Symptoms of stress fractures turn up near the beginning of exercise and generally subside as the area warms up. Have you considered a bone scan and/or x-ray?

Here is my training program for the next 20 weeks.

Much depending on the stock of Carbolin 19 :wink:

– 1 Week Speed Training –

40MG Carbolin 19

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • 30m Cycle (Single Leg Drills)
  • 1h Run (Track Drills Speed-Endurance)
    T:
  • 1h Swim (Intervals)
    W:
  • OFF
    T:
  • 1h Cycle (TrainRight Intervals)
    F:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)
    S:
  • 1h Cycle + 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)

– 3 Weeks Build Cycle –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

SetxRep Scheme:
Wk 1: (7x5) Wave
Wk 2: (6x3) Wave
Wk 3: (5x3x2) Wave

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single-Leg Drills) + 1h Run (Track Drills Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Dumbell Bench
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Weighted Pull-Ups
    W:
  • AM: 2h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: Squats
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: Clean and Jerk
    S:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Race-Pace)
  • PM: Deadlifts

– 1 Weeks Recovery –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)
    W:
  • AM: 1.5h Cycle (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 45m Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)’
  • PM: CT Abs
    S:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)

– 2 Weeks Speed-Endurance Training –

40MG Carbolin 19
1CAP Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single-Leg Drills) 1h Run (Track Drills Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    W:
  • AM: 2h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    S:
  • AM: 1h Cycle (TrainRight Intervals) + 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs

– 3 Weeks Build Cycle –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

SetxRep Scheme:
Wk 1: (7x5) Wave
Wk 2: (6x3) Wave
Wk 3: (5x3x2) Wave

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single Leg Drills) + Run (Track Drills Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Dumbell Bench
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Weighted Pull-Ups
    W:
  • AM: 2h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: Squats
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: Clean and Jerk
    S:
  • AM: Swim
  • PM: Deadlifts

– 1 Weeks Recovery –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)
    W:
  • AM: 1.5h Cycle (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 45m Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)’
  • PM: CT Abs
    S:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)

– 2 weeks Speed Training –

40MG Carbolin 19
1CAPS Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single-Leg Drills) 1h Run (Track Drills Speed)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    W:
  • AM: 1h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    S:
  • AM: 1h Cycle (TrainRight Intervals) + 1h Run (LSD)
  • PM: CT Abs

**** Sprint Tri August 06 ****

– 3 Weeks Build Cycle –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

SetxRep Scheme:
Wk 1: (7x5) Wave
Wk 2: (6x3) Wave
Wk 3: (5x3x2) Wave

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single Leg Drills) + Run (Track Drills Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Dumbell Bench
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Weighted Pull-Ups
    W:
  • AM: 2h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: Squats
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: Clean and Jerk
    S:
  • AM: Swim
  • PM: Deadlifts

– 1 Weeks Recovery –

80MG Carbolin 19
3CAPS Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)
    W:
  • AM: 1.5h Cycle (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 45m Cycle + 45m Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs
    S:
  • 1h Swim (LSD)

– 4 weeks Endurance Training —

40MG Carbolin 19
2CAPS Alpha Male

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • AM: 30m Cycle (Single-Leg Drills) 1h Run (Track Drills Endurance)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Fartlek)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    W:
  • AM: 2h Cycle (Scream Intervals)
  • PM: CT Abs
    T:
  • OFF
    F:
  • AM: 1h Swim (Speed-Endurance)
  • PM: Kettlebell Swings + Snatches
    S:
  • AM: 1h Cycle (TrainRight Intervals) + 1h Run (LSD 80% MHR)
  • PM: CT Abs

– 1 Week Taper –

Maximum Strength HOT-ROX Cycle 2-4-6-8-6-4-2 (Start Friday)
Fat-Load

S:

  • OFF
    M:
  • 30m Swim (Race Pace)
    W:
  • 1.5h Cycle (Race Pace) + 45m Run (Race Pace)
    T:
  • OFF

Carboload

F:

  • 30m Run (Track Drills Speed)
    S:
  • 15m Cycle (LSD 60% MHR)

**** Olympic Tri Sept 25th ****

HOT-ROX

[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Also, It could be a stress fracture. Symptoms of stress fractures turn up near the beginning of exercise and generally subside as the area warms up. Have you considered a bone scan and/or x-ray?[/quote]

No I hadn’t. I’m hard pressed to come up with something I’ve done to cause such a thing. I suppose whatever put the rib out of place could have done it. I’ll give it some consideration.

[quote]911 Girl wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
Also, It could be a stress fracture. Symptoms of stress fractures turn up near the beginning of exercise and generally subside as the area warms up. Have you considered a bone scan and/or x-ray?

No I hadn’t. I’m hard pressed to come up with something I’ve done to cause such a thing. I suppose whatever put the rib out of place could have done it. I’ll give it some consideration.[/quote]

Just general “overtraining” could do it. Sometimes these things just “happen”. Generally from chronic “overuse”. Its nothing wrong with your training approach, per se.

[quote]

Anyone done any other tests? 30s wingates? 60s wingates? (puke time)

ill have to dig my stats out and put myself up for some ridicule.[/quote]

well, I have data from my powertap. 30 second power was an average of just over 1000watts last time i did such a sprint. i suppose it would be a little lower on a stationary cycle.

60 second - best would be in the mid 700watt range. world champion kilometer track cyclists will do over 950watts average for a minute.

i’m 171 lbs BTW.

power/weight at lactate threshold is the most important ability for endurance cycling. great VO2max numbers don’t necessarily mean a fast rider.

Indurain was able to produce 500watts for 1 hour, during his peak. that is around 6.4watts/kg. armstrong could produce around 460watts for an hour, but he weighed less than indurain - again, he was around 6.4w/kg.

I am currently just at the 5w/kg mark.

the average fit cyclist will do 3.5 to 4w/kg for an hour.

the powermeter has become the best tool for cyclists to use in their training. I love my powertap, very useful for tracking progress, and testing. i still use heart rate too.
my resting heart rate was 40bpm yesterday morning, before my race.

I will tell you one thing, weights and endurance training DO NOT mix well!!

i’m only doing resistence work to maintain my core muscle strength. I never do a leg exercise at this point in my season.

[quote]KiloSprinter wrote:

Anyone done any other tests? 30s wingates? 60s wingates? (puke time)

ill have to dig my stats out and put myself up for some ridicule.

well, I have data from my powertap. 30 second power was an average of just over 1000watts last time i did such a sprint. i suppose it would be a little lower on a stationary cycle.

60 second - best would be in the mid 700watt range. world champion kilometer track cyclists will do over 950watts average for a minute.

i’m 171 lbs BTW.[/quote]

I honestly have no idea on Windgate numbers. Our EXSC dept. is expanding so a lot of the equiptment is getting tossed. I’ll probably be able to go in for one next season.

have you guys tried using Surge as a recovery drink from your endurance training? i have, it works incredibly well.