The Bottom Line: Healthcare

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Free market in the US healthcare system? What planet do any of you live on? The US healthcare system is strongly regulated and controlled by insurance companies. It operates as a spoils system. Ask a physician what s/he does most. The answer is often “deal with insurance companies”. My eye opening moment was offering to pay out of pocket for an MRI on my shoulder since the insurance company was waffling and the hospital didn’t even have a way to do that and flat out refused. How can you have a free market when nobody takes money from you? Healthcare in the US is so expensive since we also have to fund these massive insurance bureaucracies and hospitals need to run their own insurance claims departments.

Singapore has a good mix of free market and catastrophic coverage, but we don’t want to hear about that.[/quote]

We also have 200 million people who are overweight and obese, that might make things pricy.

22

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
I just waited over 3 years to get a simple 1 hour surgery done on my ankle.

A one inch incision, local anesthetic, and a three-and-a-half year wait. [/quote]

x

Sweet Jesus! Are you serious?

I broke my wrist in a drunken Cellulite Tsunami in college. I had 2 casts, and surgery within 24 hours. [/quote]

Tell us more about this Cellulite Tsunami. [/quote]

My roommate and I were being assholes. Drunk assholes. He dared me to punch him in the stomach. Dude was 335lbs.

I punched him. The subsequent force of the blow rippled through his midsection, met at his spine and returned to the area where my fist was with a vengence. That little U shaped bone in my wrist split like a warm candy bar under the wave of adipose destruction.

It took three days, but he had a nasty bruse the size of a grapefruit. I had a long arm cast for 3 weeks. Wiping your ass with your left hand is a bitch to get used to. [/quote]

dang, I thought it would be something along the lines of a threesome with 2 fat girls.

23

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I punched him. The subsequent force of the blow rippled through his midsection, met at his spine and returned to the area where my fist was with a vengence. That little U shaped bone in my wrist split like a warm candy bar under the wave of adipose destruction.
[/quote]

If our political leaders ever remove their heads from each other’s asses and drastically simplify our tax code, you should look into writing as a profession. This is some good stuff right here.

24

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I punched him. The subsequent force of the blow rippled through his midsection, met at his spine and returned to the area where my fist was with a vengence. That little U shaped bone in my wrist split like a warm candy bar under the wave of adipose destruction.
[/quote]

If our political leaders ever remove their heads from each other’s asses and drastically simplify our tax code, you should look into writing as a profession. This is some good stuff right here.[/quote]

Thank you. Means a lot from someone who does it for a living.

I’ve thought about it, and have 2 fiction story outlines in my head, but it is an hobby for later in life I think, when I can drink more often.

25

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Free market in the US healthcare system? What planet do any of you live on? The US healthcare system is strongly regulated and controlled by insurance companies. It operates as a spoils system. Ask a physician what s/he does most. The answer is often “deal with insurance companies”. My eye opening moment was offering to pay out of pocket for an MRI on my shoulder since the insurance company was waffling and the hospital didn’t even have a way to do that and flat out refused. How can you have a free market when nobody takes money from you? Healthcare in the US is so expensive since we also have to fund these massive insurance bureaucracies and hospitals need to run their own insurance claims departments.

Singapore has a good mix of free market and catastrophic coverage, but we don’t want to hear about that.[/quote]

We also have 200 million people who are overweight and obese, that might make things pricy.
[/quote]

Says who? A recent study in the Lancet showed that BMI has no relationship to mortality except under 18 (so really skinny, probably due to sarcopenia) or over 35 (really fat). Point is that there is no easy relationship. Mostly what people “know” about health is parroting bureaucratic dictums on what that department manage. Also, there was a marked uptick in obesity in the US a few years back because the fed redefined what it meant to be obese. An unintended consequence was to render large numbers of hispanics and blacks high risk, which negatively impacted their healthcare coverage. Highly sedentary, middle-aged white office workers consume the most in healthcare, so initiatives are aimed at them.

– jj

26

So… why not imitate Australia? They have universal healthcare to cover basics, but I still feel like there’s plenty of incentive to buy private health cover.

All you really need is to stop any form of socialized healthcare from covering self inflicted health problems (i.e. obesity).

27

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?

28

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Free market in the US healthcare system? What planet do any of you live on? The US healthcare system is strongly regulated and controlled by insurance companies. It operates as a spoils system. Ask a physician what s/he does most. The answer is often “deal with insurance companies”. My eye opening moment was offering to pay out of pocket for an MRI on my shoulder since the insurance company was waffling and the hospital didn’t even have a way to do that and flat out refused. How can you have a free market when nobody takes money from you? Healthcare in the US is so expensive since we also have to fund these massive insurance bureaucracies and hospitals need to run their own insurance claims departments.

Singapore has a good mix of free market and catastrophic coverage, but we don’t want to hear about that.[/quote]

We also have 200 million people who are overweight and obese, that might make things pricy.
[/quote]

Says who? A recent study in the Lancet showed that BMI has no relationship to mortality except under 18 (so really skinny, probably due to sarcopenia) or over 35 (really fat). Point is that there is no easy relationship. Mostly what people “know” about health is parroting bureaucratic dictums on what that department manage. Also, there was a marked uptick in obesity in the US a few years back because the fed redefined what it meant to be obese. An unintended consequence was to render large numbers of hispanics and blacks high risk, which negatively impacted their healthcare coverage. Highly sedentary, middle-aged white office workers consume the most in healthcare, so initiatives are aimed at them.

– jj[/quote]

Mortality simply refers to how long you live for. We have a plethora of wonderful pills and gadgets that help keep people alive for far longer than they would naturally (for quite a cost of course). What you want to look at are costs associated with obesity:

http://businessjournal.gallup.com/content/145778/cost-obesity-cities.aspx

There are really any number of sources out there to look at. The problem with obesity ironically is not people dying off, it is the expensive and expansive ability of medicine to prevent them from dying. I am not saying that somebody who is obese should die-I am saying we should work to prevent obesity so there is no need to pay so much to keep them alive when it can be done for the price of produce at your local supermarket.

No system of healthcare will work in this country until the focus of healthcare shifts to truly preventative measures (not statins and other pills).

29

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Free market in the US healthcare system? What planet do any of you live on? The US healthcare system is strongly regulated and controlled by insurance companies. It operates as a spoils system. Ask a physician what s/he does most. The answer is often “deal with insurance companies”. My eye opening moment was offering to pay out of pocket for an MRI on my shoulder since the insurance company was waffling and the hospital didn’t even have a way to do that and flat out refused. How can you have a free market when nobody takes money from you? Healthcare in the US is so expensive since we also have to fund these massive insurance bureaucracies and hospitals need to run their own insurance claims departments.

Singapore has a good mix of free market and catastrophic coverage, but we don’t want to hear about that.[/quote]

We also have 200 million people who are overweight and obese, that might make things pricy.
[/quote]

Says who? A recent study in the Lancet showed that BMI has no relationship to mortality except under 18 (so really skinny, probably due to sarcopenia) or over 35 (really fat). Point is that there is no easy relationship. Mostly what people “know” about health is parroting bureaucratic dictums on what that department manage. Also, there was a marked uptick in obesity in the US a few years back because the fed redefined what it meant to be obese. An unintended consequence was to render large numbers of hispanics and blacks high risk, which negatively impacted their healthcare coverage. Highly sedentary, middle-aged white office workers consume the most in healthcare, so initiatives are aimed at them.

– jj[/quote]

Mortality simply refers to how long you live for. We have a plethora of wonderful pills and gadgets that help keep people alive for far longer than they would naturally (for quite a cost of course). What you want to look at are costs associated with obesity:

http://businessjournal.gallup.com/content/145778/cost-obesity-cities.aspx

There are really any number of sources out there to look at. The problem with obesity ironically is not people dying off, it is the expensive and expansive ability of medicine to prevent them from dying. I am not saying that somebody who is obese should die-I am saying we should work to prevent obesity so there is no need to pay so much to keep them alive when it can be done for the price of produce at your local supermarket.

No system of healthcare will work in this country until the focus of healthcare shifts to truly preventative measures (not statins and other pills).[/quote]

“We” shouldn’t do anything. The government needs to stop subsidizing the agricultural monopolies that produce corn, sugar, soy, etc… This way you eliminate cheap corn-fed cattle and HFCS and DONE. Obesity epidemic solved.

30

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient

31

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

And I live in the supposed free market healthcare system and it sucks and is incredibly expensive. But you don’t want to hear that, do you?

32

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient
[/quote]

The overhead costs of the government portions of healthcare are about 2%. What are the overhead costs of the private system? And this speaks nothing of the stranglehold that big pharma has on the industry. They basically own the FDA and stop life altering treatments from coming to the market if they can’t patent them and make a profit. Big pharma is not interested in cures, they are interested in customers.

33

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient
[/quote]

The overhead costs of the government portions of healthcare are about 2%. What are the overhead costs of the private system? And this speaks nothing of the stranglehold that big pharma has on the industry. They basically own the FDA and stop life altering treatments from coming to the market if they can’t patent them and make a profit. Big pharma is not interested in cures, they are interested in customers.

[/quote]

Well the overhead costs in Austria are less than one percent.

The true costs of government run healthcare does not come in the form of overheads but in the form of lack of competition, lack of innovation, political influence, rationing and whatnot.

Plus, I know that big pharma plays the FDA.

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers and now it takes decades and billions of dollars to have a drug approved which practically makes sure that lifes are lost each year that would not have to be.

If you had a free market they would actually have to, gasp, compete.

They actually like the giant bureaucratic clusterfuck you call a “free market” because they can hire the lawyers to navigate it.

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

34

[quote]orion wrote:

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

[/quote]

When you say it was created, do you mean the FDA was created by the government?

And when you say “free market” do you mean “free from governmental interference”?

35

How can you even begin to think the government isn’t hugely involved in our healthcare system? It was BEFORE obamacare…big time. Now it’s just going to be worse. Saying our system is broken as evidence of a broken free market healthcare system is just being intellectually dishonest.

36

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

[/quote]

When you say it was created, do you mean the FDA was created by the government?

And when you say “free market” do you mean “free from governmental interference”?
[/quote]

yes and yes

37

[quote]tmay11 wrote:
I just waited over 3 years to get a simple 1 hour surgery done on my ankle.

A one inch incision, local anesthetic, and a three-and-a-half year wait. [/quote]

Sounds like Workmans Compensation in the US. I was out of work for 26 months with a knee injury and they balked at every step along the way to me finally having surgery.

Rob

38

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient
[/quote]

The overhead costs of the government portions of healthcare are about 2%. What are the overhead costs of the private system? And this speaks nothing of the stranglehold that big pharma has on the industry. They basically own the FDA and stop life altering treatments from coming to the market if they can’t patent them and make a profit. Big pharma is not interested in cures, they are interested in customers.

[/quote]

Well the overhead costs in Austria are less than one percent.

The true costs of government run healthcare does not come in the form of overheads but in the form of lack of competition, lack of innovation, political influence, rationing and whatnot.

Plus, I know that big pharma plays the FDA.

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers and now it takes decades and billions of dollars to have a drug approved which practically makes sure that lifes are lost each year that would not have to be.

If you had a free market they would actually have to, gasp, compete.

They actually like the giant bureaucratic clusterfuck you call a “free market” because they can hire the lawyers to navigate it.

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

[/quote]

Lack of competition in the government realm? What about the lack of competition in the monopolized corporate sector? Why was the option program put forth by the President so outrageous? You can stay in your private healthcare or you can opt into the government run insurance healthcare. It basically boils down to the economic threat this represented to big pharma ,big insurance etc. What happens to them if the majority of the population opted for the government model? They loose the gargantuan profits made by monopolies. And they were going to do their best to see that it did not happen. And they won! The free market can not function with health insurance. The health insurance companies profit by restricting your access. We spend more than any other country and we do not have the best healthcare system because of it. Medicare spends about 2% on administrative costs where as the private insurance companies spends close to 20% including advertising. The basic goal of the health insurance company is to get rid of expensive people. The insurance companies are good at making money but not providing healthcare and they do so by rejecting people by deliberately delaying and denying legitimate claims. Why am I to believe that this country is the only one doing it right? But Canada, Austrailia, France, Germany, Sweden etc. are doing it wrong. Why do those countries not model itself after the U.S.?

39

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient
[/quote]

The overhead costs of the government portions of healthcare are about 2%. What are the overhead costs of the private system? And this speaks nothing of the stranglehold that big pharma has on the industry. They basically own the FDA and stop life altering treatments from coming to the market if they can’t patent them and make a profit. Big pharma is not interested in cures, they are interested in customers.

[/quote]

Well the overhead costs in Austria are less than one percent.

The true costs of government run healthcare does not come in the form of overheads but in the form of lack of competition, lack of innovation, political influence, rationing and whatnot.

Plus, I know that big pharma plays the FDA.

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers and now it takes decades and billions of dollars to have a drug approved which practically makes sure that lifes are lost each year that would not have to be.

If you had a free market they would actually have to, gasp, compete.

They actually like the giant bureaucratic clusterfuck you call a “free market” because they can hire the lawyers to navigate it.

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

[/quote]

Lack of competition in the government realm? What about the lack of competition in the monopolized corporate sector? Why was the option program put forth by the President so outrageous? You can stay in your private healthcare or you can opt into the government run insurance healthcare. It basically boils down to the economic threat this represented to big pharma ,big insurance etc. What happens to them if the majority of the population opted for the government model? They loose the gargantuan profits made by monopolies. And they were going to do their best to see that it did not happen. And they won! The free market can not function with health insurance. The health insurance companies profit by restricting your access. We spend more than any other country and we do not have the best healthcare system because of it. Medicare spends about 2% on administrative costs where as the private insurance companies spends close to 20% including advertising. The basic goal of the health insurance company is to get rid of expensive people. The insurance companies are good at making money but not providing healthcare and they do so by rejecting people by deliberately delaying and denying legitimate claims. Why am I to believe that this country is the only one doing it right? But Canada, Austrailia, France, Germany, Sweden etc. are doing it wrong. Why do those countries not model itself after the U.S.?
[/quote]

All I can say is that I posted the website of a US clinic repeatedly that offers the very same procedures other clinics offer at 10-30% of the average US clinic.

The thing is, you pay cash.

The moment they are freed from that bureaucratic nightmare that is the US “free market” they can concentrate on offering value.

To you, not to some insurance company.

Then, those “monopolies” are upheld with government aid, otherwise they would not exist.

Now you may think a government run insurance is a good idea, but in reality it could not only undercut companies via government subsidies, it could also constantly change the rules in its favor.

This is a recipe for disaster.

Then, if you actually get sick, a US hospital is your best bet.

Its not the fault of the US healthcare system that you are a bunch of fat bastards.

Eat less, move more.

There, that was cheap.

40

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Did I mention that I live in such a system and that it sucks?

But you dont want to hear that, dont you?

[/quote]

Why is America the only industrialized country with a total privatized healthcare system? Why are the government segments of healthcare so much more efficient?[/quote]

Well, you are not.

define efficient
[/quote]

The overhead costs of the government portions of healthcare are about 2%. What are the overhead costs of the private system? And this speaks nothing of the stranglehold that big pharma has on the industry. They basically own the FDA and stop life altering treatments from coming to the market if they can’t patent them and make a profit. Big pharma is not interested in cures, they are interested in customers.

[/quote]

Well the overhead costs in Austria are less than one percent.

The true costs of government run healthcare does not come in the form of overheads but in the form of lack of competition, lack of innovation, political influence, rationing and whatnot.

Plus, I know that big pharma plays the FDA.

However, not one of those companies would have been able to create such a monster, it was created to “protect” customers and now it takes decades and billions of dollars to have a drug approved which practically makes sure that lifes are lost each year that would not have to be.

If you had a free market they would actually have to, gasp, compete.

They actually like the giant bureaucratic clusterfuck you call a “free market” because they can hire the lawyers to navigate it.

You have to understand when I am saying “free market” I am saying “free market”.

[/quote]

Lack of competition in the government realm? What about the lack of competition in the monopolized corporate sector? Why was the option program put forth by the President so outrageous? You can stay in your private healthcare or you can opt into the government run insurance healthcare. It basically boils down to the economic threat this represented to big pharma ,big insurance etc. What happens to them if the majority of the population opted for the government model? They loose the gargantuan profits made by monopolies. And they were going to do their best to see that it did not happen. And they won! The free market can not function with health insurance. The health insurance companies profit by restricting your access. We spend more than any other country and we do not have the best healthcare system because of it. Medicare spends about 2% on administrative costs where as the private insurance companies spends close to 20% including advertising. The basic goal of the health insurance company is to get rid of expensive people. The insurance companies are good at making money but not providing healthcare and they do so by rejecting people by deliberately delaying and denying legitimate claims. Why am I to believe that this country is the only one doing it right? But Canada, Austrailia, France, Germany, Sweden etc. are doing it wrong. Why do those countries not model itself after the U.S.?
[/quote]

All I can say is that I posted the website of a US clinic repeatedly that offers the very same procedures other clinics offer at 10-30% of the average US clinic.

The thing is, you pay cash.

The moment they are freed from that bureaucratic nightmare that is the US “free market” they can concentrate on offering value.

To you, not to some insurance company.

Then, those “monopolies” are upheld with government aid, otherwise they would not exist.

Now you may think a government run insurance is a good idea, but in reality it could not only undercut companies via government subsidies, it could also constantly change the rules in its favor.

This is a recipe for disaster.

Then, if you actually get sick, a US hospital is your best bet.

Its not the fault of the US healthcare system that you are a bunch of fat bastards.

Eat less, move more.

There, that was cheap.

[/quote]

A government run healthcare insurance would benefit everyone as it spreads risk over the entire population making it far less expensive.

It’s funny how everyone blames the government but has very little criticism for the private sector. These are the same assholes who extoll the “virtues” of the free market. However, these same assholes do not want to participate in a market that has competition. They want laws set up to create the monopolistic safeguards that benefit them at the expensive of everyone else.

And I am not fat.