T Nation

The Body Weight Factor

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
X, because you seem to not be willing or able to provide specific nutrition recommendations for gaining for noobs, can you tell us what you’d have intermediates do, say people who’ve been lifting for six months or more and have now stalled? [/quote]

I would not make SPECIFIC nutrition recommendations without looking at and following the individual and his/her progress. Anything else is baseless pseudoscience in action. I would not diagnose a patient without walking into the clinic first, so why would I make specific recommendations without knowing the trainer or seeing them and knowing what they are doing and eating now?

Then posing the question in your OP was utterly useless (to everyone but you). Since he’s a noob, there is no “what would you tell him” in your mind. Therefore, anything anybody posts in this thread about what they might tell him, is already wrong.

Well done, X. You made the perfect “Everybody Is Already Wrong” thread.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Gains in bodyweight don’t always correlate to bigger muscles because even adding solely fat can lead to bigger lifts. Some people believe because they gained strength in a particular lift, there must be a gain in muscle size. In some cases this is so, but in the case of increased leverage and cushioning or decreased bar distance, it’s not. You can pretty much eat your way to a bigger bench. [/quote]

My opinions on bodyweight/strength & muscle gains…

It is true that extra strength does not equal muscle, but with extra strength, you CAN BUILD extra muscle…

The truth is, MOST of the big guys in the gym, are also the strongest. Somebody responded to my previous post, and I got some support from people, but 3/4/5 plates on the bench, squat, and deadlift is not that common in my honest opinion.

For some people, strength comes very easily. For others, they struggle to gain an ounce of strength. For me, I believe most of my strength gains were due to the large amounts of food I ate.

Stu as an example, said he was able to build strength very easily, although his physique did not reflect this. I believe that with strength, you have a lot more techniques at your disposal, which would not be available without the strength.

For example, if you can only bench press 225 as your 1st exercise, and 80lb dbs as your 2nd exercise, and decide to start your workout by pre-fatiguing with flyes, you might now only be able to lift 185, on the bench, and only 65’s on the db’s.

See how that varies between being able to do say 275-315 as your 1st exercise, 115’s as your 2nd? Your now able to pre-fatigue, and still bang out heavy weights, which in my opinion, WILL lead to bigger muscles, if the nutrition is there.

If you take the same person, and feed him the exact same nutrients provided they are adequate for building muscle, the more weight/volume that person is able to handle and recover from, the bigger that person will get.

So yes, strength does lead to muscle.

[quote]cueball wrote:

Then posing the question in your OP was utterly useless (to everyone but you). Since he’s a noob, there is no “what would you tell him” in your mind. Therefore, anything anybody posts in this thread about what they might tell him, is already wrong.

Well done, X. You made the perfect “Everybody Is Already Wrong” thread.

[/quote]

Once again, if you don;t like this thread and see no point in it, WHY ARE YOU POSTING HERE JUST TO SAY THAT?

Other people do seem to get the point of this thread…so if this discussion is only between those people, let the discussion happen.

Are you threatened? Why waste this much time complaining just because I posted here?

This is what i get for venturing outside of the GAL…

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Gains in bodyweight don’t always correlate to bigger muscles because even adding solely fat can lead to bigger lifts. Some people believe because they gained strength in a particular lift, there must be a gain in muscle size. In some cases this is so, but in the case of increased leverage and cushioning or decreased bar distance, it’s not. You can pretty much eat your way to a bigger bench. [/quote]

My opinions on bodyweight/strength & muscle gains…

It is true that extra strength does not equal muscle, but with extra strength, you CAN BUILD extra muscle…

The truth is, MOST of the big guys in the gym, are also the strongest. Somebody responded to my previous post, and I got some support from people, but 3/4/5 plates on the bench, squat, and deadlift is not that common in my honest opinion.

For some people, strength comes very easily. For others, they struggle to gain an ounce of strength. For me, I believe most of my strength gains were due to the large amounts of food I ate.

Stu as an example, said he was able to build strength very easily, although his physique did not reflect this. I believe that with strength, you have a lot more techniques at your disposal, which would not be available without the strength.

For example, if you can only bench press 225 as your 1st exercise, and 80lb dbs as your 2nd exercise, and decide to start your workout by pre-fatiguing with flyes, you might now only be able to lift 185, on the bench, and only 65’s on the db’s.

See how that varies between being able to do say 275-315 as your 1st exercise, 115’s as your 2nd? Your now able to pre-fatigue, and still bang out heavy weights, which in my opinion, WILL lead to bigger muscles, if the nutrition is there.

If you take the same person, and feed him the exact same nutrients provided they are adequate for building muscle, the more weight/volume that person is able to handle and recover from, the bigger that person will get.

So yes, strength does lead to muscle. [/quote]

BEST POST.

This is what this topic is about.

Make thread about advice to give a noob with no progress. Proceed to tell everybody you can’t give advice without seeing the progress first.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Gains in bodyweight don’t always correlate to bigger muscles because even adding solely fat can lead to bigger lifts. Some people believe because they gained strength in a particular lift, there must be a gain in muscle size. In some cases this is so, but in the case of increased leverage and cushioning or decreased bar distance, it’s not. You can pretty much eat your way to a bigger bench. [/quote]

My opinions on bodyweight/strength & muscle gains…

It is true that extra strength does not equal muscle, but with extra strength, you CAN BUILD extra muscle…

The truth is, MOST of the big guys in the gym, are also the strongest. Somebody responded to my previous post, and I got some support from people, but 3/4/5 plates on the bench, squat, and deadlift is not that common in my honest opinion.

For some people, strength comes very easily. For others, they struggle to gain an ounce of strength. For me, I believe most of my strength gains were due to the large amounts of food I ate.

Stu as an example, said he was able to build strength very easily, although his physique did not reflect this. I believe that with strength, you have a lot more techniques at your disposal, which would not be available without the strength.

For example, if you can only bench press 225 as your 1st exercise, and 80lb dbs as your 2nd exercise, and decide to start your workout by pre-fatiguing with flyes, you might now only be able to lift 185, on the bench, and only 65’s on the db’s.

See how that varies between being able to do say 275-315 as your 1st exercise, 115’s as your 2nd? Your now able to pre-fatigue, and still bang out heavy weights, which in my opinion, WILL lead to bigger muscles, if the nutrition is there.

If you take the same person, and feed him the exact same nutrients provided they are adequate for building muscle, the more weight/volume that person is able to handle and recover from, the bigger that person will get.

So yes, strength does lead to muscle. [/quote]

BEST POST.

This is what this topic is about.[/quote]

No, the topic was about advice to a newb with no progress yet. Advice which you’ve admitted can’t be given without progress.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
it’s just a continuation of X’s constant writing about how the way HE accomplished his goals are the way everyone should approach theirs
S[/quote]

How is it some seem to understand this very well…and the same group seems to be unable to get it and ONLY seems to post to tell me how horrible I am apparently?

[/quote]

Maybe if you did not thunder through every thread talking over everybody about how “some” and “most” and “many” people agree with you…when there is usually about two…Yolo and some random person.

Ever think that some people would like to have a discussion without the constant whining about how acomplished Bodybuilders and powerlifters are being BIG MEANIES TO YEW on YOUR FORUM!.

People might be more inclined to listin to you.

And you started a thread asking a question and then refused to answer anybodys questions?

And here we are.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
Hmm, regarding how newbs should approach training and food intake, i initally thought the arguments were silly and based on some really minor stuff. However, after thinking about it, I thought i would throw out some real lfe observations.

For some reason, it seems in real life, most people that i’ve observed DO fall on 2 ends of the spectrum, even in this day and age where there is so much more info on the net compared to 10 years ago.

  1. The newer guys that i see constantly improving in size and strength are those that do not count macros or micros or whatever. They hit the weights with the standard pyramid with the main intent of getting stronger while adding in extra meals on top of what they have been eating prior to lifting. The only program discussions i’ve heard from them recently was about the OLD GVT.

  2. The ones that do count carbs, protein etc are those that can also name all the latest peri, pre post workout drinks and have tried all the latest programs. These guys are the ones that don’t progress much.

Perhaps the guys in the first category are those with much better genetics that would grow on anything initially, or maybe the guys in the second category just possess certain self-defeating character traits that prevent them from advancing. The thing is, i’ve only met ONE guy(again, in real life) that defied these 2 basic categories. He was able absorb all the knowledge about nutrition and training and supplementation while pounding it hard in the gym. Naturally, this guy has made the most progress over the months.

Now these are just personal observations on NEWBS, not seasoned trainers that have reached a reasonable level of development and have a good understanding of nutrition through trial and error or have a good coach.

Eventually, after all thats being said, I think this question still stands:

With all the advancement in supplementation and research in nutrition, nutrient timing, protein synthesis, etc, why don’t i see more big guys in the gym?

[/quote]

Good post.

This is why I made this thread. Discussions like this seem to be showing very well why we don’t.

[quote]cueball wrote:

No, the topic was about advice to a newb with no progress yet. Advice which you’ve admitted can’t be given without progress.

[/quote]

That would be because the first rule to reaching a goal, IS MAKING ONE. A very specific one. Then you make short term goals to reach the end goal.

That goes for the gym, school your job and life in general.

You can NOT debate that. It is simply truth.

You are simply here to start shit. Your statement was responded to. Let us see if you can respond in a fashion more respectable than before.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

With all the advancement in supplementation and research in nutrition, nutrient timing, protein synthesis, etc, why don’t i see more big guys in the gym?

[/quote]

Because 99% of the population doesn’t care about getting big or at least not care about applying the best information.

The average person going to a gym is going to a gym to get some exercise (or socializing) in and that’s it. They’re not up at night logging onto forums and websites figuring out the most efficient way to get big and strong. Most people have priorities that top the gym, and some people simply have shit to do that interferes with getting as big and strong as possible.

I can walk around Manhattan for hours at a shot in the summer time, when people are wearing tanks, shorts, and T-shirts, and go the whole time without noticing even ONE noticeably jacked person. And many of these people are very bright, upper middle class, and in some cases, rich, people, so it is clear they know how to apply information for a desired result. But instead, they have chosen not to be a serious lifter or bodybuilder.

Some people have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that those outside of this hobby simply do not care. They’re concerned with other things, and sometimes, rightfully so!

[/quote]
Greatest post.

I can relate to both sides. As a young kid in my early 20s I just wanted to look good and be lean. So I constantly cut. I was 6 ft. topping the scales at 170-175 and stalling with my progress. But I looked pretty good. I didn’t understand why I wasn’t getting bigger though. I look at pictures now and see how skinny I was, but I never saw it that way. I saw it as not being lean enough.

I know different now and have gained weight to get big. I have worked up in weight up to 260 to build muscle and then periodically dropped weight to lean out. I have seen a huge difference. I’m just as lean as I was in my 20s and consistently 220-230.

[quote]calebsmitty wrote:
I can relate to both sides. As a young kid in my early 20s I just wanted to look good and be lean. So I constantly cut. I was 6 ft. topping the scales at 170-175 and stalling with my progress. But I looked pretty good. I didn’t understand why I wasn’t getting bigger though. I look at pictures now and see how skinny I was, but I never saw it that way. I saw it as not being lean enough.

I know different now and have gained weight to get big. I have worked up in weight up to 260 to build muscle and then periodically dropped weight to lean out. I have seen a huge difference. I’m just as lean as I was in my 20s and consistently 220-230.

[/quote]

Thank you for posting.

let’s keep it on this level.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

No, the topic was about advice to a newb with no progress yet. Advice which you’ve admitted can’t be given without progress.

[/quote]

That would be because the first rule to reaching a goal, IS MAKING ONE. A very specific one. Then you make short term goals to reach the end goal.

That goes for the gym, school your job and life in general.

You can NOT debate that. It is simply truth.

You are simply here to start shit. Your statement was responded to. Let us see if you can respond in a fashion more respectable than before.[/quote]

I find it funny you don’t actually see how pathetic this really is.

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]bulkNcut wrote:
“I think highly unlikely there will be an advantage in muscular gain compared to a less extreme approach.”
I guess this is where the factors come in. I mean if a 6’2 guy is starting out at 140lbs I strongly believe he should focus on gaining a pound per week and progressing in his main lifts and he will see greater results than worrying about leanness. Granted his diet isn’t entirely shit. When I gained weight I honestly didnt get to a noticeable level of bf until I hit 195lbs. But if the guy is 6’ 200 to begin with then I believe he could put less emphasis on adding weight and more on getting stronger with weight gain as a side effect. So many factors man [/quote]

The more manageable way to do things is to set calories for a particular goal, say 10 to 15% above maintenance, or whatever someone judges to be suitable increase, and see what happens. If it works, then continue. If not, change something.

This whole notion of poundage goal is shoddy because it doesn’t take into account how the body is reacting into real body composition. Goals like, “I’m gonna hit 250” or “I’m not gonna start dieting until I hit 300” are extremely haphazard because they indicate a goal irrespective of what’s going on with muscular and fat gain.

I guess a really young, underweight, untrained guy can get away for awhile with the “pound per week” goal til he starts getting a bit too fat. But I can’t see this going well past the 6 month mark or so.

AND AGAIN, it comes down to what the person wants to do! If the person doesn’t mind a 1:1 fat/muscle gain, then they can just do that.

AND AGAIN, I’ll probably get hit on here because even though I respect people’s “full house” and all-out bulk preferences, my writing will usually interpreted as if I don’t. [/quote]

Like I said just my opinon. I think it worked for me cause I was really skinny, young, and didn’t care about the fat gain. For me the poundage goal was a good idea. It’s just how my mind works to have a concrete goal to work towards. However, that does not mean I don’t change things up if there is a necessity to do so. I didn’t start eating 4200 calories a day. I just slowly and gradually started to eat more. I honestly didn’t even legitimately start counting calories until I hit 185lbs and didn’t start counting macros until I hit 195. Adjusting macros and counting calories helped me get from 195 to 225 with less fat gain than if I hadn’t of counted though.
[/quote]

You gained 84 lbs and look like that? What makes you think that taking it slower would not have been better? I mean you have no real muscle mass/def. and you are cutting.

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

No, the topic was about advice to a newb with no progress yet. Advice which you’ve admitted can’t be given without progress.

[/quote]

That would be because the first rule to reaching a goal, IS MAKING ONE. A very specific one. Then you make short term goals to reach the end goal.

That goes for the gym, school your job and life in general.

You can NOT debate that. It is simply truth.

You are simply here to start shit. Your statement was responded to. Let us see if you can respond in a fashion more respectable than before.[/quote]

I find it funny you don’t actually see how pathetic this really is.[/quote]

Uh, yeah.

I did the same goal setting initially to reach my physical goals. I did the same in school.

You can call that pathetic all you wish, but the bottom line is, that is how you get really big.

Short term goals leading to the ultimate goal.

I suggest you continue to cry about how “pathetic” it is for me to discuss this…but maybe you can do that in private messages instead of literally stopping the discussion we are having here to complain about me posting…again.

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

You gained 84 lbs and look like that? What makes you think that taking it slower would not have been better? I mean you have no real muscle mass/def. and you are cutting.
[/quote]

…and the shitting on progress continues.

This guy looks like he built some bigger biceps than many I have seen on this board.

What is with this attitude lately and HOW is that seen as ok…but me posting here is such a problem?

My goal is to HELP people make more progress, not log into a forum and tear other people down for the progress they made.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Gains in bodyweight don’t always correlate to bigger muscles because even adding solely fat can lead to bigger lifts. Some people believe because they gained strength in a particular lift, there must be a gain in muscle size. In some cases this is so, but in the case of increased leverage and cushioning or decreased bar distance, it’s not. You can pretty much eat your way to a bigger bench. [/quote]

My opinions on bodyweight/strength & muscle gains…

It is true that extra strength does not equal muscle, but with extra strength, you CAN BUILD extra muscle…

The truth is, MOST of the big guys in the gym, are also the strongest. Somebody responded to my previous post, and I got some support from people, but 3/4/5 plates on the bench, squat, and deadlift is not that common in my honest opinion.

For some people, strength comes very easily. For others, they struggle to gain an ounce of strength. For me, I believe most of my strength gains were due to the large amounts of food I ate.

Stu as an example, said he was able to build strength very easily, although his physique did not reflect this. I believe that with strength, you have a lot more techniques at your disposal, which would not be available without the strength.

For example, if you can only bench press 225 as your 1st exercise, and 80lb dbs as your 2nd exercise, and decide to start your workout by pre-fatiguing with flyes, you might now only be able to lift 185, on the bench, and only 65’s on the db’s.

See how that varies between being able to do say 275-315 as your 1st exercise, 115’s as your 2nd? Your now able to pre-fatigue, and still bang out heavy weights, which in my opinion, WILL lead to bigger muscles, if the nutrition is there.

If you take the same person, and feed him the exact same nutrients provided they are adequate for building muscle, the more weight/volume that person is able to handle and recover from, the bigger that person will get.

So yes, strength does lead to muscle. [/quote]

BEST POST.

This is what this topic is about.[/quote]

If you had to guess, how many of your posts would you say are “Best Post”-ing someone who agrees with you?

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

If you had to guess, how many of your posts would you say are “Best Post”-ing someone who agrees with you?[/quote]

Not sure…probably the same numbers as the posts you make adding nothing to the discussion but complaining about me posting…again.

There is a discussion going on here that some of you seem to be trying to stop.

Why?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

No, the topic was about advice to a newb with no progress yet. Advice which you’ve admitted can’t be given without progress.

[/quote]

That would be because the first rule to reaching a goal, IS MAKING ONE. A very specific one. Then you make short term goals to reach the end goal.

That goes for the gym, school your job and life in general.

You can NOT debate that. It is simply truth.

You are simply here to start shit. Your statement was responded to. Let us see if you can respond in a fashion more respectable than before.[/quote]

I find it funny you don’t actually see how pathetic this really is.[/quote]

Uh, yeah.

I did the same goal setting initially to reach my physical goals. I did the same in school.

You can call that pathetic all you wish, but the bottom line is, that is how you get really big.

Short term goals leading to the ultimate goal.

I suggest you continue to cry about how “pathetic” it is for me to discuss this…but maybe you can do that in private messages instead of literally stopping the discussion we are having here to complain about me posting…again.
[/quote]

You can’t stop talking about yourself can you. Why didn’t you just name the thread “Let’s Talk about X and how he got Hyoooge”?

This is ALL you ever talk about. This thread you made was just another means to that end.

X, you are really, really, big. You’re progress was amazing, the obstacles you overcame tremendous, the path you took by far the most right. I can’t believe some here can’t see that this is the way to do it.

I expect a “Best Post” for that last bit.