T Nation

The Body Weight Factor

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:
X, why even make this thread?
[/quote]

Because the goals of the individual are the primary thing that should be looked at…and from there the approach is discovered…not the other way around.

I personally felt that needed discussion.

If you don’t, I am sure this thread will not miss you.[/quote]

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
-a skinny newb interested in making the most gains possible-[/quote]

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

If I follow this right, I think I kind of agree with this, but talking about individual goals in a thread where we’re using hypothetical examples is, as I said, tricky. Especially if this thread is supposed to be a semi-response to, or inspired by, comments in another thread.
[/quote]

Good point…but I also had to word this in a way to avoid the usual group of posters who only post to say something contradictory to what I did.

Yes, hypothetical examples may be tricky, but with so many shouting above the actual point trying to be made, I am betting the message gets lost overall.

If a newb were to read some of these posts, they would think I am recommending newbs do nothing but eat cheeseburgers and try to hit 30% body fat.

Simply put, a newb should not be approaching this like a professional or amatuer level bodybuilder.

They should actually approach this more like most of the other strength trainers with a strong focus on increasing muscular body weight.

[quote]
If that’s the driving goal, the one reason that made someone finally buy a gym membership and start training consistently, then yes, I’m comfortable saying that’s not an attitude I’d expect from a grown adult. If “clear the way, Roadblock’s comin’ through” was hoped for as a “side effect” from training, that’s a different thing.[/quote]

Then clearly you read something negative into a goal maybe because of bias?

This is no different than, 'I want 20" biceps". Why? No one will know they are exactly 20" except the guy who built them or someone who asks.

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
will the guy with plans of really making people move out of the way when he walks in a room[/quote]

I don’t think this is anyone’s goal on this whole site aside from yours.

3-5 years ago there were ALOT of members here with this kind of goal, I can immediately think of half a dozen without even trying.

I can’t think of a single thread in the last 12-18 months where anyone has said it is their goal to gain a huge amount of size (possibly zraw to an extent i suppose).

This is just an observation and something I have noticed not saying it is good or bad.

[quote]Ironfreak wrote:
This is exactly what I did…per the advice of the infamous Prof X, due to his “Ask Prof X” thread.

I started off a skinny 155lbs.

I bulked up to a “fat” 230.

I was able to develop a shit ton of strength, that I feel I would have never gained, had I tried to gain slowly and keep the bodyfat at a minimum. I would eat an entire pizza, and that would allow me to train for 2 hours, with relatively “heavy” weights, than most of my friends who would burn out after an hour eating “healthy” food.

I was able to deadlift 5 plates, squat almost 4, bench 3, and push 100’s+ on pressing exercises, among others. (this is not to brag, but to say that I believe I achieved this strength STRICTLY because of the food)

I am now down to 200.
[/quote]

This kind of post should strand out to people.
It sounds like you made great progress.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is no different than, 'I want 20" biceps". Why? No one will know they are exactly 20" except the guy who built them or someone who asks.
[/quote]

Can’t think of anyone in the last couple of years making statements like “i want 20 inch biceps” either

just an observaton

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.[/quote]

So it was a bait and switch, then.

X: What should a newb who’s GOAL is to make the most gains possible do?

DD: Learn to eat right and train right.

X: Shouldn’t their GOAL be the first thing looked at?

Bait and switch.

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.[/quote]

So it was a bait and switch, then.

X: What should a newb who’s GOAL is to make the most gains possible do?

DD: Learn to eat right and train right.

X: Shouldn’t their GOAL be the first thing looked at?

Bait and switch.

[/quote]

It is whatever you want it to be…since you clearly are not here to discuss the topic at all.

No, “train right and eat right” are concepts that take the entire life of a weight trainer to learn how to control for their individual physique and goals.

There is no one way to “eat right”…therefore, that should not be the very first thing looked at with a new trainer.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
If that’s the driving goal, the one reason that made someone finally buy a gym membership and start training consistently, then yes, I’m comfortable saying that’s not an attitude I’d expect from a grown adult. If “clear the way, Roadblock’s comin’ through” was hoped for as a “side effect” from training, that’s a different thing.[/quote]
Then clearly you read something negative into a goal maybe because of bias?[/quote]
Bias? That kinda came outta nowhere.

It’s actually coming from experience as someone who’s trained kids in the gym and taught kids martial arts. If a youngster comes into the dojo and says he wants to learn karate in order to beat someone up, I’m going to sit down and talk to him, explaining why that’s not why we learn what we learn.

On the flip side, if a 15-year old says he wants to get big enough for the football coach to invite him onto the team, that’s different.

And to be clear, my original comment was referring to, the goal of “really making people move out of the way when he walks in a room.” After that, you clarified “my goal was to be big enough for people to notice.” Maybe it’s semantics, but I don’t see those two as the same.

“I want really big arms” is a very different goal that comes from a different place compared to “I want people to get out of the way when I enter a room.”

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.[/quote]

So it was a bait and switch, then.

X: What should a newb who’s GOAL is to make the most gains possible do?

DD: Learn to eat right and train right.

X: Shouldn’t their GOAL be the first thing looked at?

Bait and switch.

[/quote]

It is whatever you want it to be…since you clearly are not here to discuss the topic at all.

No, “train right and eat right” are concepts that take the entire life of a weight trainer to learn how to control for their individual physique and goals.

There is no one way to “eat right”…therefore, that should not be the very first thing looked at with a new trainer.[/quote]

So your question in your OP should have just been “what should a newb do to reach WHATEVER goal he has”?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.[/quote]

So it was a bait and switch, then.

X: What should a newb who’s GOAL is to make the most gains possible do?

DD: Learn to eat right and train right.

X: Shouldn’t their GOAL be the first thing looked at?

Bait and switch.

[/quote]

It is whatever you want it to be…since you clearly are not here to discuss the topic at all.

No, “train right and eat right” are concepts that take the entire life of a weight trainer to learn how to control for their individual physique and goals.

There is no one way to “eat right”…therefore, that should not be the very first thing looked at with a new trainer.[/quote]

He needs to learn to train. As in actually learn patterns and what does what. Learn to squat, chest press, est.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch or weight if he doesn’t first know how to train.

He needs to learn the basics of nutrition. The general functions of protein, fat, carbs, and learn how to look at/evaluate his food in terms of workout nutrition and building his body.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch of weight before he learns about food.

The first step to building a brick wall is to learn about bricks and motor and how they go together, not to start building.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

And as my last post pointed out, you left no interpretation to what the goals would be.

[/quote]

I made the point to show an extreme goal at the start for a reason…to very blatantly define the goals and the fact that a different approach may be needed. Like Chris pointed out, it may be a hypothetical, but one can not describe the difference in approach without setting the goals.

I am not telling all newbs to have the same goal.[/quote]

So it was a bait and switch, then.

X: What should a newb who’s GOAL is to make the most gains possible do?

DD: Learn to eat right and train right.

X: Shouldn’t their GOAL be the first thing looked at?

Bait and switch.

[/quote]

It is whatever you want it to be…since you clearly are not here to discuss the topic at all.

No, “train right and eat right” are concepts that take the entire life of a weight trainer to learn how to control for their individual physique and goals.

There is no one way to “eat right”…therefore, that should not be the very first thing looked at with a new trainer.[/quote]

So a teenager who has a Mountain Dew and mini donuts for breakfast and eats nachos for lunch should not learn to eat better when they start weight training? They shouldn’t take into account how many calories are needed to maximize muscle gain?

Sounds like that approach would be limiting their progress.

For the record I never recommended that they “train right and eat right”. That is made up bullshit.

great new info here, bookmarking this for later so I can reread it

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
And to be clear, my original comment was referring to, the goal of “really making people move out of the way when he walks in a room.” After that, you clarified “my goal was to be big enough for people to notice.” Maybe it’s semantics, but I don’t see those two as the same.
[/quote]

Best post.

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This is no different than, 'I want 20" biceps". Why? No one will know they are exactly 20" except the guy who built them or someone who asks.
[/quote]

Can’t think of anyone in the last couple of years making statements like “i want 20 inch biceps” either

just an observaton

[/quote]

That is because it now believed to be “impossible” if I go by the posts here…or no one can build close to that without tons of drugs.

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
great new info here, bookmarking this for later so I can reread it[/quote]

will read thread to grandchildren

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

He needs to learn to train. As in actually learn patterns and what does what. Learn to squat, chest press, est.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch or weight if he doesn’t first know how to train.[/quote]

That wasn’t what was meant…and “how to train” again is subjective.

No one is saying to gain a bunch of weight before training.

[quote]

He needs to learn the basics of nutrition. The general functions of protein, fat, carbs, and learn how to look at/evaluate his food in terms of workout nutrition and building his body.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch of weight before he learns about food.[/quote]

I agree with the basics…but what he even l;earns about food will change over a lifetime just like all of those people who were told eggs would kill them.
That was my point…that these are factors that change as a person grows and that person has to learn to adapt.

[quote]
The first step to building a brick wall is to learn about bricks and motor and how they go together, not to start building.[/quote]

? I am sure you can do both at the same time.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

Bias? That kinda came outta nowhere.

It’s actually coming from experience as someone who’s trained kids in the gym and taught kids martial arts. If a youngster comes into the dojo and says he wants to learn karate in order to beat someone up, I’m going to sit down and talk to him, explaining why that’s not why we learn what we learn.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but beating someone up and being big enough to be noticed are not the same.

We all should have that goal to some degree if we are posting here.

[quote]
On the flip side, if a 15-year old says he wants to get big enough for the football coach to invite him onto the team, that’s different.[/quote]

How? It is the same thing.

I do. What YOU read into it is based on your own life experience and bias.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

He needs to learn to train. As in actually learn patterns and what does what. Learn to squat, chest press, est.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch or weight if he doesn’t first know how to train.[/quote]

That wasn’t what was meant…and “how to train” again is subjective.

No one is saying to gain a bunch of weight before training.

[quote]

He needs to learn the basics of nutrition. The general functions of protein, fat, carbs, and learn how to look at/evaluate his food in terms of workout nutrition and building his body.

No, he should not be trying to gain a bunch of weight before he learns about food.[/quote]

I agree with the basics…but what he even l;earns about food will change over a lifetime just like all of those people who were told eggs would kill them.
That was my point…that these are factors that change as a person grows and that person has to learn to adapt.

[quote]
The first step to building a brick wall is to learn about bricks and motor and how they go together, not to start building.[/quote]

? I am sure you can do both at the same time.[/quote]

Not if you don’t know that bare basics, of which much of the population doesn’t. Their idea of of training and eating big might mean girl pushups and beef flavored Doritos.