The Bible

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
My personal definition: a collection of primitive fables–some of them self-evidently nonsensical, many of them unoriginal, and most of them inaccurate beyond reasonable doubt in the era of the electron microscope and radiocarbon dating–which has nonetheless proven to be remarkably resilient and quite useful over the ages (for both good and ill).[/quote]

Well, I expected a little better from you smh. I know you have read at least some of it and have some understanding of it, but merely a collection of ‘fables’ it is not. There are allegorical stories, which are not based on historical fact, but to illustrate a point. But there is also fact based books, poetic, prophetic, liturgical, linguistic, numerelogical, and metaphysical sections and aspects to the Bible.
It doesn’t matter whether you believe what’s in it. But it’s richness and complexity, while intermingling a calming simplicity to it makes it, at the very lest one of the greatest writings in the history of man. It’s been studied in detail for hundreds of generations and it’s depth have still not yet fully been explored.
Forget about religion, just be fair to the book. [/quote]

Fair enough, Pat. I presented an overly-simple definition because it was controversial.

The gist of my post I still stand by, but I don’t mean to imply that the Bible is not full of rich history and beauty, which it is.

I wrote out a long post in the “why is your religion better” thread that expresses my view of the Bible much better.

For the record, I’ve always enjoyed reading it and thinking about it. I just don’t believe the important parts of it.[/quote]

I get it, you don’t believe in the divinity of the book, but do not deny that it’s nature, messaging and content is both elegant and deep. Whether you believe in it’s divinity or not, as literature, it’s an epic piece of work. And even if you don’t believe in it’s divinity, the truth spoken in say, Proverbs is useful in daily life.

I understand you to be a reasonable and thoughtful person which is why I took exception to the over simplification. Not in a bad way, but in the fact that I know you better than that. [/quote]

Word, I’m glad you did because you’re absolutely right.

[quote]pat wrote:<<< There is no perfect interpretation capable by man, but only by God himself. As long as man is a conduit, there will be no infallible interpretation. Only the author knows what he truly meant by every word.[/quote]Boys n girls my friend Pat has uttered yet another towering profundity for which he will receive this weeks Tiribulus “Hallelujah Worthy Bullseye” award. His third I believe. (DoubleDeuce got it last week) There will be no individual OR CHURCH in this age that will EVER have a perfect interpretation of all of scripture. I agree. As soon as everybody agrees with me however we’ll be that much closer, but until then, far be it from me to be selfish. I’m always happy to share. lol.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
No theme for this thread other than the title. I just want to see where it goes…
So let it rip![/quote]

Only makes sense in its original language and coupled with the oral law also given Moses.

In fact, lacking vowels and punctuation in the original Hebrew, the Torah is highly abiguous without the oral law and traditions of interpretation.

The reliance on imperfect interpretations has given rise to many a strange and imperfect theology.[/quote]

Would you claim the Torah is an actual written history of the Jewish Nation, or more of a generalized story?[/quote]

Your question presents a false dichotomy due to its breadth.[/quote]

Agree.[/quote]

Maybe I just tried to simplify a complex question and failed, but I was just wondering. When I read the Bible I see it as a History lesson on the Jewish Nation and their walk with God both as a Nation and as Individuals. Some of the stories are about the entire nation and some of the stories are about the individuals. If the Bible is not those things than please tell me. All 3 of us (JB, Pat, and myself) agree that they are not fables or made up stories. These stories actually happened to these people, did they not?

[quote]pat wrote:
No theme for this thread other than the title. I just want to see where it goes…
So let it rip![/quote]

Darwin’s book is better.

I don’t think so Headhunter, The Bible is infinitely richer and better than Huckleberry Finn.

[quote]Karado wrote:
I don’t think so Headhunter, The Bible is infinitely richer and better than Huckleberry Finn.[/quote]

Now come on, we all know that Tolkien`s Silmarillion is the best book ever!

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
I don’t think so Headhunter, The Bible is infinitely richer and better than Huckleberry Finn.[/quote]

Now come on, we all know that Tolkien`s Silmarillion is the best book ever![/quote]

Some would argue that for ‘50 shades of grey’

“Do you read the Bible Brett?”

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Only makes sense in its original language and coupled with the oral law also given Moses.

In fact, lacking vowels and punctuation in the original Hebrew, the Torah is highly abiguous without the oral law and traditions of interpretation.

The reliance on imperfect interpretations has given rise to many a strange and imperfect theology.[/quote]

I’m not a believer but I can 100% get behind this statement. Context is everything and that seems to be what is missing now. We like to pull out random bits that support what we want to argue but those bits are useless when taken out of context.

james

I think perhaps of of the most fascinating aspects of the Bible is it layered nature. Much like Russian nesting dolls, aslo known as Babushka, there are whole worlds of meaning and knowledge ready and waiting for any one willing to dig deeper. There is meaning children, adolescents, young adults and mature adults to be had from the same story.

This is why I chose not to believe the seven day creation story to be a literal account, which of course sends Tiribulus into a tail spin.

I don’t have tailspins.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t have tailspins. [/quote]

tizzy?

I don’t have tizzy’s either. You have demonstrated a spectacular deficiency in the understanding or fruit of anything biblical, opting instead for modernist heresies and practice that would have been utterly foreign to the apostles. My recognition of this does not constitute a “tizzy”. It is the biblical defense of His name and reputation which every Christian is commanded to fulfill where necessary. Instead of having a “tizzy” yourself while reading this, I pray (I really do) that the savior you claim as your Lord will break your stubborn heart and teach you what that means. You can tell He is doing that when you begin to love what He loves and hate what he hates. It will change everything you think, say, do and are. People will notice. Most won’t like it. That’s how Jesus told us it would be. The church on this continent did once understand that. Not anymore.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t have tizzy’s either. You have demonstrated a spectacular deficiency in the understanding or fruit of anything biblical, opting instead for modernist heresies and practice that would have been utterly foreign to the apostles. My recognition of this does not constitute a “tizzy”. It is the biblical defense of His name and reputation which every Christian is commanded to fulfill where necessary. Instead of having a “tizzy” yourself while reading this, I pray (I really do) that the savior you claim as your Lord will break your stubborn heart and teach you what that means. You can tell He is doing that when you begin to love what He loves and hate what he hates. It will change everything you think, say, do and are. People will notice. Most won’t like it. That’s how Jesus told us it would be. The church on this continent did once understand that. Not anymore. [/quote]

For what it is worth, I do very much admire your tenacity. Few people adhere so rigidly to any belief.

The bible ?

a weapon of mass civilization.

It detonated three millenia ago and it continue to irradiate us to this day.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t have tizzy’s either. You have demonstrated a spectacular deficiency in the understanding or fruit of anything biblical, opting instead for modernist heresies and practice that would have been utterly foreign to the apostles. My recognition of this does not constitute a “tizzy”. It is the biblical defense of His name and reputation which every Christian is commanded to fulfill where necessary. Instead of having a “tizzy” yourself while reading this, I pray (I really do) that the savior you claim as your Lord will break your stubborn heart and teach you what that means. You can tell He is doing that when you begin to love what He loves and hate what he hates. It will change everything you think, say, do and are. People will notice. Most won’t like it. That’s how Jesus told us it would be. The church on this continent did once understand that. Not anymore. [/quote]

For what it is worth, I do very much admire your tenacity. Few people adhere so rigidly to any belief. [/quote]Every one of the eternally elect in Christ have and do. My very sincere hope is that you are one of them. I wish you could believe I mean that. These big wide mushy blurry borders are a purely modern western invention. They have rendered Christianity here a powerless, pathetic, irrelevant joke. For the record, my problem with you is NOT your belief in an old earth though in your mind, uninfluenced as it is by the presence of the Holy Spirit, I’m sure you’ve probably been thinking it is. See, in fairy dust modern America that is seen as self righteous and mean and judgmental and boo hoo hoo. In the first century? Me telling you to repent, forsake you self willed idolatrous life and see the risen Christ live His life in you was just the gospel. Still is actually. Always will be.

I say again. I can smile at foaming rabid God hating atheistic pagans all day long. They’re supposed to be like that. I expect it. A guy in hijack haven the other day told me “In related news - I wish someone would strangle you so we didn’t have to listen to your view about ANYTHING.” LOL!!! I literally cracked up when I read that. Then I prayed for the guy. I will not however suffer someone to take the name of my beautiful Jesus upon their lips and bring dishonor and reproach upon His majesty with their overt heresy and or flagrantly immoral life. Ya know why I don’t give up on you? Because I sense a smothered but breathing conscience buried down in there. You know you ain’t right don’t ya? Yes you do. I dare you to deny that. You won’t though. Which like I say is why I don’t give up on you. You’ll give some milquetoast answer about how imperfect you are and yes you could be doin better and blah blah blah. Maybe not now since I said that huh? We’d be havin this conversation in private btw, but I can’t make you mail me. Always feel free to do so though. Even if it’s years from now. my screen name @ gmail dot com. You’d probably be surprised at how nice a guy I actually am.

[quote]kamui wrote:
The bible ?

a weapon of mass civilization.

It detonated three millenia ago and it continue to irradiate us to this day.
[/quote]What disturbs me sometimes is how completely you and I usually communicate despite every possible reason why we shouldn’t. I could write an 18 inch post on what you mean by this and you would agree with pretty much all of it. I wouldn’t do that though because I still owe you an 18 inch post in the claiming moral authority thread. I have been simply unable to devote the proper time yet. My church has a school called Detroit Bible Institute. I brought you up by name in advanced apologetics class last Wednesday. Quite favorably I assure you.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646. 301 redirect
CHAPTER I.
Of the holy Scripture.

I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation; therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.

II. Under the name of holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the Books of the Old and New Testament, which are these:

Of the Old Testament

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
I Samuel
II Samuel
I Kings
II Kings
I Chronicles
II Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
The Song of Songs
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

Of the New Testament

The Gospels according to
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
The Acts of the Apostles
Paul’s Epistles to the:
Romans
Corinthians I
Corinthians II
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
Thessalonians I
Thessalonians II
Timothy I
Timothy II
Philemon
The Epistle to the
Hebrews
The Epistle of James
The First and Second
Epistles of Peter
The First, Second, and
Third Epistles of John
The Epistle of Jude
The Revelation

All which are given by inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.

III. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.

IV. The authority of the holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or Church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the Author thereof; and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word; and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and the government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.

VIII. The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion the Church is finally to appeal unto them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God who have right unto, and interest in, the Scriptures, and are commanded, in the fear of God, to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, may have hope.

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture, is the Scripture itself; and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it may be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.

X. The Supreme Judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture. [/quote]

So, by the Authority of The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646, you know which books are in the New Testament?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
modernist heresies[/quote]

Says the heretic.

Says the man who follows no Apostle, not even one that doesn’t follow the Prince of Apostles.

By the power and providence of almighty God He has revealed to His body and bride, His church, which writings carry His authority. This is no problem for me. Just remember dearest Christopher. You fired the first volley here. That’s ok though. If your church is what she says she is then I AM a heretic. You see now don’t ya? I can be a heretic and yet you still love me. That’s all I’ve been sayin since we’ve known each other.
EDIT: Oops. Oh yeah, I follow/imitate the apostles as they follow Christ like Paul said. (1 Corinthians 11:1) You have to know what they said before this can be done. I do hereby once again assert, calmly and even respectfully, that the church headquartered in Rome is not the place to look if one would accurately learn what they said. Yes, I am fully persuaded that I know what they said with far more exegetical integrity than all the magisterial scholars in the history of Roman Catholicism combined. We can still talk about that Chris.

Pat, I have really sought the Lord about further adjustments to my attitude since you took me off ignore. We are veering straight in the rapids that capsized us last time. I hope we can avoid the same upheaval again. Do feel free however to disagree with me. Even strenuously. I do also still wish we had PM’s or that you would email me.