The Best Back Exercise

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]pulphero wrote:
I understand the point you’re making. But let me be a little wise ass and ask you a question.
If your life depended on it, would you take the information you gained from people with advanced degrees in Anatomy & Physiology and Kinesiology and who are licensed by educational agencies to provide Continuing Education Units to degreed professionals…

OR

some guy who says he’s done a lot of rows, chins, and deads and this is what he thinks he feels in his opinion? [/quote]

Depends on the guy, but if some guy with advanced degrees disagreed with someone like Stu or zraw, I’d be listening to the latter.

22

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]pulphero wrote:
I understand the point you’re making. But let me be a little wise ass and ask you a question.
If your life depended on it, would you take the information you gained from people with advanced degrees in Anatomy & Physiology and Kinesiology and who are licensed by educational agencies to provide Continuing Education Units to degreed professionals…

OR

some guy who says he’s done a lot of rows, chins, and deads and this is what he thinks he feels in his opinion? [/quote]

Depends on the guy, but if some guy with advanced degrees disagreed with someone like Stu or zraw, I’d be listening to the latter.[/quote]

touche’ lol

23

[quote]pulphero wrote:

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
My friend, have you actually worked out before?

I ask as if you have performed a deadlift, row and chinup, you will soon realise that deadlifts use as many muscles as rows, perhaps working a few to a more extreme degree that rows. And yes, the muscles of your legs are not involved in a chinupgroupussuspended in the air.

FWIW I love rows. They are probably the best synergy of heavy weight and controlled focus on the back musculature. However, the assertion that your lats are not involved in a deadlift would not be made by a person who had ever deadlifted. It’s confusing.[/quote]

I understand the point you’re making. But let me be a little wise ass and ask you a question.
If your life depended on it, would you take the information you gained from people with advanced degrees in Anatomy & Physiology and Kinesiology and who are licensed by educational agencies to provide Continuing Education Units to degreed professionals…

OR

some guy who says he’s done a lot of rows, chins, and deads and this is what he thinks he feels in his opinion?

Now, to be fair, I have zero idea what your degree is in. But come on. The people running ExRx have a bit on the line to lose if they’re wrong. In light of that, the idea that they would “forget” to mention the largest muscle group in the back as working in the deadlift of all things seems…suspect.

[/quote]

I also see your point mate. And I see that you’re trying to find the superlative (my degree is in English :)) ‘back’ exercise…which is good. Of course, I currently do deadlifts, parallel-grip chins, pendlays, bent over flyes, SLDLs and T-bars, on different days in my split…so you can see that I feel the ‘back’ is a large, heterogenous group of muscles - nobody would find the best chest exercise (low incline DB press, since you’re asking) and do them, excluding ab movements as “it is the best ‘front’ exercise” - if you get my point.

I love pendlays, yates, kroc, t-bars, SGHPs, chins, deads…and more. How I found that they work for me is by trying them. If a bloody mentat genius phd mr O told me T-bars don’t use my traps for example - I’d just ignore him.

To be a wiseass here; the way you perform an exercise varies the stress placed on muscles. A Yates row VS a Pendlay row for example…you could also take a wider/narrower grip, flare elbows/tuck them, keep spine parallel to slow/ stand up, pull to hip/abs/solar plexus…emphasising different muscles. Also, your own leverages come into play. I was being facetious, I’m sure you train. But I would certainly not quote as evidence anything from a source who denies deads use lats. That’s pretty basic. Oh, and I also tense my tris, when deadlifting, can we add them to the list?

24

I personally find pull ups to be the best for me. i hate and never do barbell rows. I sometimes do dumbell rows. i also hate the cable row. Regarding which is best for most lifters,I cant say. I know that what i do works for me. I,m not massive or anything,but there is a pic of my back on my one workout per week log in the over 35 lifter. I thought this sort of post would add a little something,in a very non intellectual way to the discussion. Lol lol. Confusion

25

[quote]pulphero wrote:
I understand the point you’re making. But let me be a little wise ass and ask you a question.
If your life depended on it, would you take the information you gained from people with advanced degrees in Anatomy & Physiology and Kinesiology and who are licensed by educational agencies to provide Continuing Education Units to degreed professionals…

OR

some guy who says he’s done a lot of rows, chins, and deads and this is what he thinks he feels in his opinion?

Now, to be fair, I have zero idea what your degree is in. But come on. The people running ExRx have a bit on the line to lose if they’re wrong. In light of that, the idea that they would “forget” to mention the largest muscle group in the back as working in the deadlift of all things seems…suspect.[/quote]

Totally suspect. It almost appears they lack an understanding of the movement.

That is a terribly ignorant statement.

Have you ever deadlifted before? If so, what’s your training max?

26

I took this as one of those what if threads, what if you were stranded on a desert island, what if you could only do I back exercise. makes for interesting discussion. What the guy who started the thread can lift dosen’t seem relavent to me. 2cents

27

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:

That is a terribly ignorant statement.

Have you ever deadlifted before? If so, what’s your training max?
[/quote]

My agreeing to add the lats into the list of the muscles worked is a terribly ignorant statement? (Actually you might be right on that, but not for the reason you think)
I simply pointed out that even if you did add lats in, that brought the muscles listed from 13 to 14…still 5 muscles less than the barbell bent row.

My max deadlift at 5’8" 180lbs is 407.5-lbs–I could complain I have a long torso and short arms, which is true, but others with the same disadvantages have manged to pull much more. I weight about 10-12 pounds more now but switched to rows awhile ago so I doubt the extra weight would make a difference to my 1RM.

Now suppose my DL max was only 100-lbs. Now lets pretend it’s 800-lbs.

At what point does the biophysics of the lift change in such a way as to suggest my own personal max would have anything to do with the discussion? It seems like your trying to suggest that the person who can deadlift the most must know the most. That’s a terribly ignorant thought so it can’t be what you meant…can it?

A better question would be, why does the American Council of Sports Medicine recommend the ExRx guide or why the National Strength and Conditioning Association certify them for CEUs when they don’t list lats on muscles worked in the deadlift.

(The answer to that question isn’t going to be: because they have a 1000lbs deadlift.)

All this worry about the lats in deads is a fork in the discussion. I’m happily willing to say they’re worked for the sake of moving past it–but the bent row still works more back muscle which is the point I was saying. It doesn’t matter if the “more” is 4 or if the “more” is five.

Because it works the most back musculature it’s the most complete back exercise.

28

[quote]pulphero wrote:

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:

That is a terribly ignorant statement.

Have you ever deadlifted before? If so, what’s your training max?
[/quote]

My agreeing to add the lats into the list of the muscles worked is a terribly ignorant statement? (Actually you might be right on that, but not for the reason you think)
I simply pointed out that even if you did add lats in, that brought the muscles listed from 13 to 14…still 5 muscles less than the barbell bent row.

My max deadlift at 5’8" 180lbs is 407.5-lbs–I could complain I have a long torso and short arms, which is true, but others with the same disadvantages have manged to pull much more. I weight about 10-12 pounds more now but switched to rows awhile ago so I doubt the extra weight would make a difference to my 1RM.

Now suppose my DL max was only 100-lbs. Now lets pretend it’s 800-lbs.

At what point does the biophysics of the lift change in such a way as to suggest my own personal max would have anything to do with the discussion? It seems like your trying to suggest that the person who can deadlift the most must know the most. That’s a terribly ignorant thought so it can’t be what you meant…can it?

A better question would be, why does the American Council of Sports Medicine recommend the ExRx guide or why the National Strength and Conditioning Association certify them for CEUs when they don’t list lats on muscles worked in the deadlift.

(The answer to that question isn’t going to be: because they have a 1000lbs deadlift.)

All this worry about the lats in deads is a fork in the discussion. I’m happily willing to say they’re worked for the sake of moving past it–but the bent row still works more back muscle which is the point I was saying. It doesn’t matter if the “more” is 4 or if the “more” is five.

Because it works the most back musculature it’s the most complete back exercise. [/quote]

I apologize if I mistook your comment. Came across kinda condescending…my bad.

Does working more muscle groups necessarily translate into more muscle growth though? Doesn’t each muscle work to varrying extents?

29

[quote]pulphero wrote:

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:

That is a terribly ignorant statement.

Have you ever deadlifted before? If so, what’s your training max?
[/quote]

My agreeing to add the lats into the list of the muscles worked is a terribly ignorant statement? (Actually you might be right on that, but not for the reason you think)
I simply pointed out that even if you did add lats in, that brought the muscles listed from 13 to 14…still 5 muscles less than the barbell bent row.

My max deadlift at 5’8" 180lbs is 407.5-lbs–I could complain I have a long torso and short arms, which is true, but others with the same disadvantages have manged to pull much more. I weight about 10-12 pounds more now but switched to rows awhile ago so I doubt the extra weight would make a difference to my 1RM.

Now suppose my DL max was only 100-lbs. Now lets pretend it’s 800-lbs.

At what point does the biophysics of the lift change in such a way as to suggest my own personal max would have anything to do with the discussion? It seems like your trying to suggest that the person who can deadlift the most must know the most. That’s a terribly ignorant thought so it can’t be what you meant…can it?

A better question would be, why does the American Council of Sports Medicine recommend the ExRx guide or why the National Strength and Conditioning Association certify them for CEUs when they don’t list lats on muscles worked in the deadlift.

(The answer to that question isn’t going to be: because they have a 1000lbs deadlift.)

All this worry about the lats in deads is a fork in the discussion. I’m happily willing to say they’re worked for the sake of moving past it–but the bent row still works more back muscle which is the point I was saying. It doesn’t matter if the “more” is 4 or if the “more” is five.

Because it works the most back musculature it’s the most complete back exercise. [/quote]

The amount of weight you lift can absolutely play a part in the discussion. And thats not to allege in any way that someone is weak or anything like that, far from it. I’m sure most people could say for certain they got more of a tricep or shoulder pump from bench presses at 200 pounds than they did at 100 pounds. More of a lower back pump at 300 pound squats than 200 pound squats. People can have completely different points of view of their muscles working the stronger or weaker they are.

30

I started trying the google thing to see why lats were left out as I’m curious myself. Maybe it’s my search terms but I couldn’t find anything very official just a avalanche of big dudes talking their technique and forum discussions about if deads make lats wider.

Then I remembered (again) Bret C’s article on the “best” exercises based on his electrical activity monitoring of muscle activity during a movement. He didn’t do deads BUT he did do rack pulls and IIRC showed more lat activity in them than in chins.

So I started wondering how can rack pulls activate if deads don’t? Then I thought that basically when I did them they took the legs out of the equation so much they more like Rack SLDL. So I went to ExRx and looked up BB SLDL

Muscles

Target

Erector Spinae

Synergists

Gluteus Maximus
Adductor Magnus
Hamstrings

Stabilizers

Quadriceps
Trapezius, Middle
Rhomboids
Latissimus Dorsi
Trapezius, Upper
Levator Scapulae
Trapezius, Lower

Antagonist Stabilizers

Rectus Abdominis
Obliques

There’s the latimus listed as a stabilizer. But not in the regular deadlift. So then I did wonder if it was a typo no one has ever caught. That seems unlikely but not impossible, I guess; but it’s been up for years.

But what if they’ve determined the angle of the torso in the SLDL which (in my own subjective experience) more match Rack Pulls rather than the angle in full on deads makes a huge difference?

But some guys are ‘back’ deadlifters and some guys are ‘leg’ deadlifts and round back deaders might be making screaming use of their lats especially if they bend their arms at all --but the guys with the slide rulers at ExRx only count shoulders higher than hips head up letter perfect form (exaggerated even more if done sumo) when making their list?

31

I’m pretty sure CT mentioned in an article or comment awhile back that deads might not be a great back “mass builder” for some depending on how well the lifter actually recruited the lats in performing the lift … As evidence he pointed out the guy(s) most of us have seen pulling fairly big weights (compared to BW) with little or no muscle - back or elsewhere …

I think to a point this may be accurate … Not at elite levels - but I’ve seen some dudes pull 400 - 500 pound DL’s, and if you saw them on the street, the word “gym” wouldn’t have crossed your mind …

Obviously diet and other factors play into this scenario, but I think you can do DL’s and not really engage or stimulate your lats much (NOT saying you are doing them correctly in this fashion) … And no, a 400 - 500 DL isn’t earth shattering - but when you weigh a buck sixty soaking wet with rocks in your pockets and can get that up, you would expect some muscle to come with it …

Good discussion tho …

32

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
I apologize if I mistook your comment. Came across kinda condescending…my bad.

Does working more muscle groups necessarily translate into more muscle growth though? Doesn’t each muscle work to varrying extents?[/quote]

No problem whatsoever. Nice of you to say that–flames around here get insane over slighter things so that’s pretty cool. Excuse any wise assery of my own.

I would think each muscle in the chain works to a varrying extent and thus grows. My own idea would be that this means (sub-elite levels) that systemic regional works causes systemic and symmetrical growth because cadavers never look like muscle charts and isolation is pretty hard to really get at.

So say you only did low incline DB presses as mentioned above–they sound good-- and ass-to-grass squats and bent rows pendlay style.

However you want, according to whatever exercise belief you want. You can do 'em full body 2-3 times a week. You can do Monday Push Wednesday Legs Thursday Pull. You can do 'em in some kind of funky split so you work out 4-5 times per week. You can go Bulgarian. Whatever frequency has worked for you–do it.

Same with sets and reps. HIT for one top set for each? Cool. GVT; cool. 8x3? 5x5? Rest Pause? Whatever doesn’t matter as long as you feel like it’s a set/rep scheme that’s given you.
results. But do all the sets & reps you spread out across all those numerous exercises on only the exercise that gives you the best return for your money.

I would argue that because those 3 exercises stimulate you systemically as a total body and also systemically in their respective regions–your growth (allowing for individual variance)will be largely symmetrical. That systemic & symmetrical growth are very very close.

It won’t be until you reach much higher levels that’ll you’ll need to worry about any asymmetric performance or cosmetic problems at all. For the back I’d put my money on the barbell bent row in that mix for the reason stated above.

But all that subject drift of “get to fundamentals” is just me trying to explain why I agree with your point about the muscles working to varrying degrees–but that this isn’t necessarily a horrible thing.

And on any one given population segment or individual I could be dead wrong in this approach.

33

I like the irony of your saying you’re ‘dead wrong’.

Seriously though IN GENERAL the reason bar rows (or t-bars, or chins, or krocs, or batwings, or face pulls, etc etc) > deadlifts for UPPER back hypertrophy is due to the lack of an eccentric in the deadlift.

Also as to the whole list thing, ‘kipping’ chins might work more muscles (in terms of number) than ‘strict’ chins…but they are not better for back development.

One last thing: IMO horizontal rows with good MMC (whether that can be achieved with strict/sloppy form) for the lats and scap retractors are thebest ‘desert island’ back exercise…but we aren’t working out at a poorly-equipped desert island gym. Even if you are, you could do chins off those coconut trees! Target different areas with exercises fit for purpose. Thread should focus on different areas of back.

E.g.

SLDL: best for spinal erectors
Sloppy-form DB flyes: best for rear delts

34

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
I like the irony of your saying you’re ‘dead wrong’.[/quote]

LOL

[quote] Seriously though IN GENERAL the reason bar rows (or t-bars, or chins, or krocs, or batwings, or face pulls, etc etc) > deadlifts for UPPER back hypertrophy is due to the lack of an eccentric in the deadlift.[/quote}

What do you mean? You drop your deads like snatches? (not being a smart ass).

I can get why you’d say that but ever since my A&P in nursing school and looking at the body I really made a big jump philosophically against trying too hard to break down the body–that is a personal bias I admit I own. I think 7-10 different exercises (or whatever)to hit “different” fibers or muscle ‘angles’ didn’t look to me like it could happen in too efficient a way.

Holding a tight position of torso on knees and while pulling pendlay style from dead stops has my spinal erectors, hams, ass, and calves screaming. If I loosen up in to more of a “K” stance then I admit the stress does feel different. But rowing tight after full squats? Makes SLDL supliferous–let alone leg curls.

But in the weight room, for you (the generic ‘you’ not), YMMV.

35

[quote]pulphero wrote:

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
I apologize if I mistook your comment. Came across kinda condescending…my bad.

Does working more muscle groups necessarily translate into more muscle growth though? Doesn’t each muscle work to varrying extents?[/quote]

No problem whatsoever. Nice of you to say that–flames around here get insane over slighter things so that’s pretty cool. Excuse any wise assery of my own.

I would think each muscle in the chain works to a varrying extent and thus grows. My own idea would be that this means (sub-elite levels) that systemic regional works causes systemic and symmetrical growth because cadavers never look like muscle charts and isolation is pretty hard to really get at.

So say you only did low incline DB presses as mentioned above–they sound good-- and ass-to-grass squats and bent rows pendlay style.

However you want, according to whatever exercise belief you want. You can do 'em full body 2-3 times a week. You can do Monday Push Wednesday Legs Thursday Pull. You can do 'em in some kind of funky split so you work out 4-5 times per week. You can go Bulgarian. Whatever frequency has worked for you–do it.

Same with sets and reps. HIT for one top set for each? Cool. GVT; cool. 8x3? 5x5? Rest Pause? Whatever doesn’t matter as long as you feel like it’s a set/rep scheme that’s given you.
results. But do all the sets & reps you spread out across all those numerous exercises on only the exercise that gives you the best return for your money.

I would argue that because those 3 exercises stimulate you systemically as a total body and also systemically in their respective regions–your growth (allowing for individual variance)will be largely symmetrical. That systemic & symmetrical growth are very very close.

It won’t be until you reach much higher levels that’ll you’ll need to worry about any asymmetric performance or cosmetic problems at all. For the back I’d put my money on the barbell bent row in that mix for the reason stated above.

But all that subject drift of “get to fundamentals” is just me trying to explain why I agree with your point about the muscles working to varrying degrees–but that this isn’t necessarily a horrible thing.

And on any one given population segment or individual I could be dead wrong in this approach.[/quote]

The more I think about it, the more I think you’re right. You win lol. I thought deadlifts were better for hypertrophy. But, with barbell rows you can always emphasize difference segments of your back rep to rep, set to set, Pendlay style to Yates style. This IMO should make it the better back builder.

36

LOL. This has to be the fuzziest thread I’ve ever read here–though I’ve met a lot of cool wise people, too.

I didn’t win–I was honestly just doing a “hey did you ever notice X and if X is true that means Y” sort of thing.

My back evolution Started out swearing Yates/Kelso style rows were monster back builders. Then I drifted into thinking Rack Pulls were the pit pull of all the back exercises right up to my biceps tendon tear.

But then one day 5 months later after I’d healed, I tried pendlay Bent Rows and felt something going on, something different than the heaving hitch of Yates rows and crushing weight of Rack pulls–I felt my back contracting hard which caused me to look up the anatomical and then wander over here.

Good discussion. We’ll never need to do just one exercise if we don’t want to and plenty of people have built strong & big backs dodging rows. But there seems something going on with this exercise.

Good knocking it around with you guys.

37

Personally I like pull ups/chin ups and it is probably the most used back exercise where I live(nigeria) but from experience doing rows and deadlifts does more for the back than any other exercise, the only problem is doing deadlifts at times would make u sore for days,but the best bet is to have plethora of options and use them all in your back workout routine

38

Did anyone say snatch grip deadlift?

39

For many reasons I think weighted chins or single arm DB rows are the back exercise kings. I wouldn’t choose to do one back exercise to the complete exclusion of others, but those two are my go-to’s for athletes or mass-building.

40

Reasoning that an exercsise is better that another because it stimulaes ‘more’ muscles is flawed. You do not have infinite neuromuscular stimulating capacity so therefore spreading the stimulus across many muscles can in fact be detrimental to hypertrophy (if hypertrophy is your goal).

The BBOR utilises not only the upper back musculature to execute the rowing movement but also it utilises the lower back, glutes and hams to brace and stabilise the body during the movement. This takes away from the effectiveness the actual row has on hypertrophy of the upper/mid back because a portion of your nervous capactiy is directed to the supporting musculature and not the targeted muscles.

Compound exercises do put higher neurological, hormonal, and cardiorespiratory demands on your body than simple isolation exercises or exercises that use less muscle but using one over the other is very goal specific. If you are looking for training economy then the exercise that utlilises the most muscle is your beet option but if you are looking for hypertrophy then an exercise that focuses stress on specific areas is better.