T Nation

The Anti-Friend Zone

So I’ve had some in-depth discussions lately with my closest guy friends, particularly focused on the friendzone phenomenon. Turns out it’s a completely foreign concept to me, and I was actually kind of baffled by it. It’s never happened to me in my life. In a weird way, I kind of wish it would after hearing them describe it.

What I’ve dealt with I guess I’m gonna call anti-friendzone for lack of a better term. Basically it means that the biggest barrier I face with women is they see me strictly as fling and/or ONS material–the player, d-bag, fuckboi, not trustworthy, etc. I’ve heard it all no matter how I approach. And the second I indicate either desire for friendship or any kind of exclusive dating, they are gone and running before I can even finish. And I will never hear from them again. Apparently, lot of guys get friendzoned and the girl continues talking regularly and spending alot of time with them. Given my experience that actually sounds awesome!

The grand irony of it all, is that I’m the complete antithesis of all those things. I’ve never cheated on any girl I dated, and I’m into nerdy things like improv comedy, comic books, swing dancing, karaoke, etc. But women around Chicago just can’t seem to get past how I look and any assumptions they’ve built up around that. My last relationship lasted 3 years and she STILL didn’t trust me until the very end. She threw a fit if I even talked to a woman that wasn’t her.

Anyway, wanted to share and see if any of you have experienced similar or had any insights. Needless to say, it’s exhausting. As someone who’s very cerebral, ONS just aren’t really my thing. Sex is pointless to me without a serious connection, and at this point I only see it as an STD risk if it’s not someone I’d seriously consider dating. I’ve got my life in order, and I’ve been ready to settle down for years, but I’m not seeing a clear path over this hurdle at the moment.


Dude I’m the same. I’m the most awkward, polite, nice, shy guy there is and girls often think I’m a chad player rofl. I had one ONS 11 years ago, never was my thing. Not on any dating app, I tried but I really don’t like it. The first time I talk to two girls at once (last year) I was feeling so guilty ahahah.

Yet because I expose sports things, show abs and whatever girls think I’m a Don Juan.

I think it’s still better than getting friendzoned though. I have trouble getting the concept when you’re a grown adult. One should make his intentions clear quite fast anyway…

Yeah it’s tough right now, since most interactions with girls are through social media. But in real life, people instantly see I’m not a chad douche.

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Dude, how?! This is what I’m trying to learn. It seems no matter how I act, her insecurities will ultimately get the best of her. It’s just a matter of when. Sometimes right away, after a few dates, few years.

Do what women have been doing for centuries - meet people others can vouch for, go to places where people aren’t just looking for a bit of a tickle (hint usually doesn’t have drinking as the primary activity) and establish the beginning of a connection before you get your pants off.


Honestly, I don’t even drink so I hate going to bars. Any suggestions? Any of the girls I’ve dated so far have been through dance classes, the gym, karaoke, parties I threw at my place, or meetup events like ultimate frisbee.

All of the girls? You can’t fake being nice, you have to genuinely care. if after a few weeks she still think you’re a douche player then:

  1. You are

  2. She projects her own insecurities on you and she has work to do about her confidence

Its because you have the fucboi phenotype (judging by your thumbnail). And I’m not talking about your muscles, but rather your facial masculinity. Essentially, you are too sexually dimorphic.

Here’s a pic to explain what I mean:

dom physio

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Rofl is that a thing? You mean like I don’t get friendzoned because I have a sharp jawline?

Yes, absolutely. If you have a masculine and harmonious face, you don’t get friendzoned, or are much less likely to. Facial genetics (height and bone structure, too) is the most important factor when it comes to dating/sex.

And the reason why women make these snap judgements about you and OP is because women only bang DOM’s and STM’s (short term mate) for flings. For LTR’s, less masculine men are preferred because they have less options, and are thus a more secure bet. Birth control exacerbates this dynamic by blunting women’s ovulatory cycle.

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DOM’s? What is this? PUA slang ahahah?

While that’s generalization, I have been thinking about it and I might have some anecdotal evidence. I have a good friend who’s a real Don Juan, with different girls all the time. He was chatting some girl but it didn’t happen, then some time later je found out via Snapchat or whatever that this girl had a freaking foursome with some random dudes and he asked her about it, curious about why she would do that with these guys (he’s very blunt and honest) and she said something like “but I don’t care about them so I don’t care about doing dirty stuff with them, I would never do that with you” or something ahah.

At the same time, aren’t some men the same? I have friends who have ONS with girls that they don’t really like that much. They decide afterwards. They were explaining me that I was different because I was sorting out girls before I date them/have sex with them

DOM’s? What is this? PUA slang ahahah?

That image was ripped from a social science study. PUA’s may use “DOM” in reference to masculine behavior, whereas this study was referring to looks. I think PUA is bullshit, by the way.

WRT to your Don Juan friend: perhaps he falls closer to the LTM side of the spectrum, which would explain why he was friendzoned. That’s not to say LTM phenotypes can’t be fuccboi’s – they’re just going to have to work for it, whereas DOM/STM phenotypes get pussy with ease, like the four dudes who banged the chick your friend was talking to.

They were explaining me that I was different because I was sorting out girls before I date them/have sex with them

Yes, you can have a DOM/STM phenotype but LTM/AVG male mentality. Much more rare than DOM phenotype + DOM behavior.

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It’s just that I don’t know what are DOM, STM, LTM and AVG ahahah any link to your studies or something that I go check that out?

You’ve mentioned quite a few times before that you regularly drink and “go out”. That might give off the impression that you’re looking for “fun”, even if that is not who you are

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Yeah well not for a few months with these events. Even then, I’m not sure about that, it’s not like I advertise this part of my life on Instagram or whatever

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Based on your previous post history on the flame free confession thread, I had the impression that you were like any other “fun” loving young male

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Yeah I’ve had a very crazy summer. I love going out (within reason) for sure, alcohol, partying fun with friends… But deep down I just want a nice woman to have a very quiet life and cook and all together :joy:

I’m 30 and I’ve had one one night stand, 11 years ago, and I think I only ever approached two girls when going out. Not really my cup of tea, nor the goal of the evening.

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Research suggests that a photo and a single description of behaviour is enough to form lasting first impressions… :wink:


This thread reads like the romance version of the “can’t gain weight” problem :joy::joy:

Well, they’re just terms on a continuum from most masculine/dimorphic to least masculine/dimorphic
DOM = dominate, most masculine
STM = short term mate
LTM = long term mate
AVG = average male (friendzoned all the time)
AND = androgynous (no poon, ever. probably doesn’t want any, regardless).

Here’s a good video:

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I don’t follow, but I’m intrigued. What do you mean?

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