The Abortion Thread

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1121

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

None of that matters, still murder…[/quote]

Tomato, To MAH to. I don’t really agree with that. You don’t have a big funeral, write an obituary spend thousands on a casket when a woman has a miscarriage, do you? What would the obituary say? “it was the fastest swimmer”? Give me a break. A fetus is NOT a person, it only has the POTENTIAL to be a person. If you follow that logic, then you have to outlaw women having periods and men masturbating.
[/quote]
Nature destroys life all the time. Just because a tornado kills people does not mean you can kill people. Just because miscarriages happen, it doesn’t mean you can kill human life. What kind of burial it has or doesn’t have is irrelevant.
A fetus is not a ‘potential human’ there is no such thing as a ‘potential human’. A fetus IS a human life. It has it’s own autonomous human DNA, it has it’s own tissue and it is alive. By all aspects the fetal human is a human life. Scientifically speaking, it is a human life. Not a part human, or sort of human, it is a total unique human life that cannot be replaced once it is taken.
The sperm or egg do not have these characteristics therefore they are irrelevant to the topic.

Sentience is not really relevant to the argument. Nobody can actually know what does or does not have sentience.

I am not concerned what a woman does with her own body. If she wants to chop her arm off and stick it to her head, I could careless, but if she wants to kill her child, I have a problem with that.

Because other societies are immoral does not mean we can or should be immoral. Slavery used to be accepted, but it was still wrong then as it is now.

[quote]
This is nothing new. It’s only become “baaaaaad” because your religion TELLS you it’s bad (and I’ve already stated my beliefs about THAT) [/quote]

Religion has nothing to do with it. Taking a human life is wrong, it doesn’t matterif your an atheist or religious nut. This isn’t about religion, it’s about the taking of human life and treating it as if it has no value.

If you can prove a fetal human is not a human life, I will concede everything, but you have to prove it.

1122

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Fuck it - it’s beyond my meager skill to fix the quotes. You’re just going to have to read between the text I so badly butchered. Or not.[/quote]

I’ll try to muddle through it later.

1123

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
pat wrote:
angry chicken wrote:
pat wrote:
angry chicken wrote:
I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.

That’s a cop out. WHY are you personally against it? Why should it be illegal at all if there is nothing wrong with it?

I stated WHY I’m personally against it in my first point. To summarize: I think I make awesome offspring and believe that MY genetics, IF SEEDED, should have the opportunity to grow. It’s a purely SELFISH reason, not a religious one.

I would allow for abortions in the FIRST trimester so that a person has a legal option of discarding a fetus with as little trauma as possible to the fetus. I would make it illegal in the second and third trimester because the closer a fetus comes to term, the more aware it becomes and the more cruel it is suck it out with a vacuum tube. I feel that’s unnecessary. Just like I feel a cow should be dispatched with a quick pneumatic fixed bolt gun coupled with a slit throat rather than beating it to death with a hammer. It avoids needless suffering.
[/quote]
That makes no sense what so ever. The question on the table is whether or not the life you take is a human life, which unequivocally it is and every scientific investigation supports this fact.
Why are you worried about being cruel to a fetus if it is not a human life? You’re basically admitting it’s human life in the second trimester, if not then whats the harm of killing it off.

[quote]

I would also make any abortion conditional on the discarded fetus becoming the property of the the lab performing the procedure so that it can be used to further stem cell research and other scientific ends.

Sounds like some the Nazi Doctors would do…

Nice ad hominem attack!!! Take something YOU personally believe in (but that the MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY disagrees with you on) that’s perfectly legal and has been litigated up and down the court system and FOUND TO BE CONSTITUTIONAL BY SMARTER PEOPLE THAN YOU OR I, and compare my opinion to that of a Nazi, one of the most evil perpetrators if genocide in human history…

Thanks - VERY mature arguing skills you got there.

Please fix your quotes…

I KNOW! I’m trying! I edited it like three times already![/quote]

If you are developing human life for scientific purposes, the implications are disturbing to say the least. And that wasn’t an ad hominem, I was being serious. Destroying human life for the purpose of science is sick and it is the type of things the Nazi doctors did do…

Explain to me why, if the fetus is not a human, is Scott Peterson rotting in jail for killing his unborn son?
Why are these people being arrested for murder because of botched abortions?
http://global.christianpost.com/news/house-of-horrors-murder-trial-pa-abortion-doctor-broke-the-law-as-standard-practice-79985/
Looks to me the law is not so clear after all…

1124

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

So you’re pro-choice (legalized abortion).[/quote]

Well, in the same way that someone who thinks that criminalizing suicide/weed smoking/prostitution is a bad idea, necessarily is for all of these things.

There is now way, NO WAY!!!11!, that someone could come to the conclusion that making it illegal and the enforcement of such laws could do more harm than the act itself.

No, they are all rather simple simpletons and of course lying liars.

1125

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

So you’re pro-choice (legalized abortion).[/quote]

Well, in the same way that someone who thinks that criminalizing suicide/weed smoking/prostitution is a bad idea, necessarily is for all of these things.

There is now way, NO WAY!!!11!, that someone could come to the conclusion that making it illegal and the enforcement of such laws could do more harm than the act itself.

No, they are all rather simple simpletons and of course lying liars. [/quote]

In the case of abortion, they most certainly are. See, there is a guaranteed death with each abortion. Now, you’re free to say such a thing isn’t true with smoking pot. But it damn sure is the case with abortion.

1126

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

So you’re pro-choice (legalized abortion).[/quote]

Well, in the same way that someone who thinks that criminalizing suicide/weed smoking/prostitution is a bad idea, necessarily is for all of these things.

There is now way, NO WAY!!!11!, that someone could come to the conclusion that making it illegal and the enforcement of such laws could do more harm than the act itself.

No, they are all rather simple simpletons and of course lying liars. [/quote]

In the case of abortion, they most certainly are. See, there is a guaranteed death with each abortion. Now, you’re free to say such a thing isn’t true with smoking pot. But it damn sure is the case with abortion.
[/quote]

As you should be-

You are just too damn sure when something rather nebulous like “human life” changes into “person”.

And, in the case of driving licenses, alcohol consumption, consensual sex with adults and whatnot we must deal with the desperate attempt to define a cutoff point for something that is essentially a biological continuum.

In a lot of other areas you would sign that in a heartbeat.

In this, you dont, just because you are more attached to it than most.