The Abortion Thread

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Ok, nimrod.[/quote]

You know, I used to think you were actually a good debtor who intentionally used obfuscation tactics to get yourself out of any pinch, but now I’m coming to understand that obfuscation is all you have and when pressed on an issue you inevitably come up short.

Disappointing. [/quote]

Oh damn, I am hurt. And you used a big word an everything.

There’s nothing left to debate. I made the argument that abortion is murder, you conceded, but despite that fact your think it is a fine practice that must go on. Conceding it’s murder is all I need. Most folks concede that murder is a crime that should be illegal, I don’t feel particularly obliged to educate you on ethics, since you obviously have a rather large hill to climb from where you stand on the matter. You keep trying to reinvent the wheel, the fucking thing is already round.

At this point you just want to bicker for bickering’s sake.

All I can do is offer you some cheese to go with your whine…

As far as debating is concerned you have A LOT to learn. You’re condemnation of my debating skills is about as meaningful as telling me I am a terrible kazoo player. I think I’ll survive it.

[/quote]

You getting me to concede that abortion is murder is about as impressive as me getting you to concede that the sky is blue.

When you abort a fetus, you kill it. I have no problem in admitting this because I think it is an acceptable exception. I don’t think killing automatically takes something off the table and neither do you.

So take comfort in… whatever it is you think you’ve accomplished here worthy of taking comfort in, because all you’ve succeeded in doing here outlining your hypocrisy and revealing your ignorance.

On top of being a mediocre debater, you’re a sore loser too.

Now there’s a man who really enjoys his work…

You really ARE a blast Raj.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You really ARE a blast Raj.[/quote]

Yeah, this line is just precious:

"In the end, he said that ‘rational design’ would help lead to a better, more intelligent and less violent society in the future. "

Abortion is wrong, my 2¢???

Why deny the gift of life to someone who cannot do anything about it.


I post things because I find them interesting, not necessarily because I agree/disagree with what I posted says.

OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

So you’re pro-choice (legalized abortion).

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

None of that matters, still murder…

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

So you’re pro-choice (legalized abortion).[/quote]

I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.

I would also make any abortion conditional on the discarded fetus becoming the property of the the lab performing the procedure so that it can be used to further stem cell research and other scientific ends.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.
[/quote]
That’s a cop out. WHY are you personally against it? Why should it be illegal at all if there is nothing wrong with it?

Sounds like some the Nazi Doctors would do…

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
OK, Sloth, here I am. Instead of derailing the other thread, let’s keep it here where it belongs. What would you like to know about my position on abortion? Here’s a few things to get us started:

-I am PERSONALLY against abortion. I am a successful male in my late 30’s and have two wonderful children - both boys. If I were to “plant another seed”, I’m sure that I could raise the third one up to be a fine upstanding citizen. I would have no reason, excuse or wish to abort any baby that I create. I’ve got great genes and I make strong, intelligent, healthy kids with good immune systems.

I view my children as my greatest asset and contribution to the world. I strive every day to educate them, mold them, and give them all the tools that I believe will make them successful good men with integrity. While I am not actively PLANNING on having more children, and I am OCD with my practice of protecting my seed, I understand that being sexually active makes pregnancy a possibility.

I accept the remote chance that I could impregnate a woman. To mitigate that risk, I have chosen to a) be very selective about the quality of women who I have sex with and b)if it happens, remain positive, supportive and involved.

-I also know that not everyone is in MY position or shares MY beliefs. They may have reasons to NOT want children. I may not agree with all of their reasons, but I choose to ACCEPT their individual sovereignty and will respect what ever decision they may feel is appropriate for THEIR life and THEIR goals.

-I am pro adoption. I think that there are plenty of people that cant have kids (or who want more kids) and would love to adopt BABIES. I also think GAY couples who obviously can’t have kids should have the exact same rights and ability to adopt kids as straight couples.

I also think gay couples should have the right to a civil union that grants them the same GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED rights and responsibilities as married couples - this has NOTHING to do with religion. But that’s a topic for another thread.

-I don’t believe abortion should be used haphazardly. I think the morning after pill should be widely available and I think that birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control should be widely available.

-I believe that EVERY opportunity should be given to a woman to avoid getting pregnant in the first place, including abstinence education AS WELL AS honest sexual education and hands on instruction on the proper use of contraceptives.

-I believe that the urge to have sex and procreate is the second strongest instinct that humans are wired for (right behind survival). I believe it is the height of ignorance to think that an abstinence only approach will even be marginally effective in preventing unwanted pregnancy. PEOPLE WILL FUCK, ACCEPT IT.

-I believe in evolution, survival of the fittest, sexual selection and do NOT hold an ideal that “LIFE” is “sacred”. LIFE happens. In the real world all manner of organisms are born and die. Some die quickly, some reach their “design limit”. Some species EAT their children (or the children of their competition) for various reasons. Some lay 100 eggs and expect only one or two to reach adulthood. Death happens. Infanticide happens. It is all a part of natural selection. Humans are not above natural selection.

-I believe that this concept that EVERY SEED is sacred is nothing but religious nonsense perpetuated by the Catholic church to breed more Catholics so that they can give 10% of their money. If Catholics truly believed that all life were sacred, then they never would have sponsored the Crusades and slaughtered millions of people in the name of GOD. A pro-Life position based on religion is pure hypocrisy. [/quote]

None of that matters, still murder…[/quote]

Tomato, To MAH to. I don’t really agree with that. You don’t have a big funeral, write an obituary spend thousands on a casket when a woman has a miscarriage, do you? What would the obituary say? “it was the fastest swimmer”? Give me a break. A fetus is NOT a person, it only has the POTENTIAL to be a person. If you follow that logic, then you have to outlaw women having periods and men masturbating.

If you use the “sentient being” argument, then you had better be a vegan or else you’re a hypocrite. Why aren’t you protesting Obama’s policy on using drones to kill people with out a trial? What about the collateral damage that is then used as a rally point to direct violence and death toward Americans? Picking abortion out of the sea of “Murder” that legally occurs EVERY DAY is nothing short of hypocrisy.

Bottom line, women have been in control of their bodies for THOUSANDS of years. They have found ways to abort and prevent pregnancy and have used them. It’s a FACT of this world. Making it illegal will not make a single bit of difference, because it will still happen and it will happen in secret - every heard of a back ally butcher? You won’t be preventing ANYTHING.

In some societies they’ve taken girls or undesirable babies and thrown them over a cliff or drowned them. In other words, humans, along with EVERY OTHER SPECIES ON THE PLANET, has and has the right to choose whether or not to raise their offspring.

This is nothing new. It’s only become “baaaaaad” because your religion TELLS you it’s bad (and I’ve already stated my beliefs about THAT)

If you follow that logic, then you have to outlaw women having periods and men masturbating.

What kind of things do you think they will be fighting if they ever manage to outlaw abortion? Masturbation is a sin and stopping it from continuing is their moral obligation.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
A fetus is NOT a person, it only has the POTENTIAL to be a person. If you follow that logic, then you have to outlaw women having periods and men masturbating.

[/quote]

Honest, non-sarcastic advise. Read up on gametes and the fetus. Two very, very, different things. A fetus is factually an individual organism (life) already moving through it’s life cycle. And, needing no explanation (I hope), a human fetus is a human life. Human fetus= an individual human organism. An organism is a life. So human life. Gametes? Nope.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
If you follow that logic, then you have to outlaw women having periods and men masturbating.

What kind of things do you think they will be fighting if they ever manage to outlaw abortion? Masturbation is a sin and stopping it from continuing is their moral obligation.[/quote]

I will seriously recommend a little A&P 101 for you, too.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.
[/quote]
That’s a cop out. WHY are you personally against it? Why should it be illegal at all if there is nothing wrong with it?

[quote]
[/quote] I stated WHY I’m personally against it in my first point. To summarize: I think I make awesome offspring and believe that MY genetics, IF SEEDED, should have the opportunity to grow. It’s a purely SELFISH reason, not a religious one.

I would allow for abortions in the FIRST trimester so that a person has a legal option of discarding a fetus with as little trauma as possible to the fetus. I would make it illegal in the second and third trimester because the closer a fetus comes to term, the more aware it becomes and the more cruel it is suck it out with a vacuum tube. I feel that’s unnecessary. Just like I feel a cow should be dispatched with a quick pneumatic fixed bolt gun coupled with a slit throat rather than beating it to death with a hammer. It avoids needless suffering.

[quote]

Sounds like some the Nazi Doctors would do…[/quote]

Nice ad hominem attack!!! Take something YOU personally believe in (but that the MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY disagrees with you on) that’s perfectly legal and has been litigated up and down the court system and FOUND TO BE CONSTITUTIONAL BY SMARTER PEOPLE THAN YOU OR I, and compare my opinion to that of a Nazi, one of the most evil perpetrators if genocide in human history…

Thanks - VERY mature arguing skills you got there.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.
[/quote]
That’s a cop out. WHY are you personally against it? Why should it be illegal at all if there is nothing wrong with it?

[quote]
[\quote] I stated WHY I’m personally against it in my first point. To summarize: I think I make awesome offspring and believe that MY genetics, IF SEEDED, should have the opportunity to grow. It’s a purely SELFISH reason, not a religious one.

I would allow for abortions in the FIRST trimester so that a person has a legal option of discarding a fetus with as little trauma as possible to the fetus. I would make it illegal in the second and third trimester because the closer a fetus comes to term, the more aware it becomes and the more cruel it is suck it out with a vacuum tube. I feel that’s unnecessary. Just like I feel a cow should be dispatched with a quick pneumatic fixed bolt gun coupled with a slit throat rather than beating it to death with a hammer. It avoids needless suffering.

Sounds like some the Nazi Doctors would do…[/quote]

Nice ad hominem attack!!! Take something YOU personally believe in (but that the MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY disagrees with you on) that’s perfectly legal and has been litigated up and down the court system and FOUND TO BE CONSTITUTIONAL BY SMARTER PEOPLE THAN YOU OR I, and compare my opinion to that of a Nazi, one of the most evil perpetrators if genocide in human history…

Thanks - VERY mature arguing skills you got there.[/quote]

Please fix your quotes…

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I am PERSONALLY against abortion, but I don’t think they should be illegal in the first trimester. I wouldn’t have a problem making second and third trimester abortions illegal except under the most extenuating of circumstances.
[/quote]
That’s a cop out. WHY are you personally against it? Why should it be illegal at all if there is nothing wrong with it?

[quote]
[\quote] I stated WHY I’m personally against it in my first point. To summarize: I think I make awesome offspring and believe that MY genetics, IF SEEDED, should have the opportunity to grow. It’s a purely SELFISH reason, not a religious one.

I would allow for abortions in the FIRST trimester so that a person has a legal option of discarding a fetus with as little trauma as possible to the fetus. I would make it illegal in the second and third trimester because the closer a fetus comes to term, the more aware it becomes and the more cruel it is suck it out with a vacuum tube. I feel that’s unnecessary. Just like I feel a cow should be dispatched with a quick pneumatic fixed bolt gun coupled with a slit throat rather than beating it to death with a hammer. It avoids needless suffering.

Sounds like some the Nazi Doctors would do…[/quote]

Nice ad hominem attack!!! Take something YOU personally believe in (but that the MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY disagrees with you on) that’s perfectly legal and has been litigated up and down the court system and FOUND TO BE CONSTITUTIONAL BY SMARTER PEOPLE THAN YOU OR I, and compare my opinion to that of a Nazi, one of the most evil perpetrators if genocide in human history…

Thanks - VERY mature arguing skills you got there.[/quote]

Please fix your quotes…[/quote]

I KNOW! I’m trying! I edited it like three times already!

Fuck it - it’s beyond my meager skill to fix the quotes. You’re just going to have to read between the text I so badly butchered. Or not.